1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:28,160
Hi, neighbors.

2
00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:30,000
This is Long John with the Party Line.

3
00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,880
We're around from midnight to 5.36 m during the week.

4
00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,200
Monday mornings we get started about one.

5
00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:44,800
We continue through till 5.30, and that means we're around for 37.5 hours a week.

6
00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:51,760
During the past week or last week, I mention quite often that we would have what I consider

7
00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:58,600
to be a very, very exciting discussion this morning.

8
00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:00,280
Or maybe you think we're still in Monday.

9
00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:04,480
Actually, we're in the Tuesday morning already.

10
00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,760
First let me bring you up to date.

11
00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:12,840
Major Donald E. Kehoe, United States Marine Corps flyer retired and author of three books

12
00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:20,240
on UFOs commonly called Flying Saucers and presently director of National Investigations

13
00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:26,480
Committee on Aerial Phenomena of Washington, D.C., was a guest on the Armstrong Circle

14
00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:35,160
Theater Wednesday night, the 22nd of January, 1958.

15
00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:40,880
If you've been listening to the Party Line, you certainly remember that we discussed that

16
00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:42,280
particular telecast.

17
00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,440
We spent a lot of time on it.

18
00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:49,840
Now the show was scripted, and all guests and professional performers appearing there

19
00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:59,040
on are supposed to undergo two days of rehearsal and then read their lines from teleprompters.

20
00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:05,360
On the program with Major Kehoe were, first, its senior writer who sat in as a guest for

21
00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:14,080
Mr. Kenneth Arnold because Arnold refused to appear after the last rehearsal.

22
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:20,160
Now Major Kehoe was allotted about five minutes immediately after the Air Force representative

23
00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:27,720
read from his teleprompter several statements that would confirm the existence of UFOs.

24
00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:29,240
Well now, wait a moment.

25
00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,880
At this point, some people may be a little confused.

26
00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:38,240
You may be under the impression that I have made the statement that the Air Force representative

27
00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:43,840
led people to believe that there is an existence of UFOs.

28
00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,480
It was Major Kehoe's opinion.

29
00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:55,760
In fact, I think that he implied that these UFOs are coming from outside this earth.

30
00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:03,960
Now Major Kehoe concluded his allotted time for the final 20 seconds with an ad-lib statement

31
00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,360
that was not in the script.

32
00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:12,480
Now this statement was monitored from the air by at least two private citizens and recorded

33
00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,120
by them on tape.

34
00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:21,560
Unfortunately it was inaudible to the average listener due to the volume having been cut

35
00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:29,360
down almost to the minimum at some physical point between the microphone being used by

36
00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:36,040
Major Kehoe and the TV transmitter then being used.

37
00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:40,280
Now this could have been at any one of several points.

38
00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:45,800
However, this is what I consider to be very important.

39
00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:56,040
Kehoe's statement, which faded at the 13th word, was finally cut off.

40
00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:01,680
Now this is quite different technically from a fade.

41
00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,640
Actually it was cut off two words before the end.

42
00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:13,400
Now I have been told and I hope I am not wrong but to bring you up to date, this is supposed

43
00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:20,280
to be part of the statement that you heard and part of the statement that you didn't

44
00:04:20,280 --> 00:04:26,680
hear, which you may be hearing for the first time this morning.

45
00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:34,800
Kehoe made this statement, I would like to make a disclosure that has never been revealed

46
00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,440
to the public.

47
00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,000
Now at this point, fade began.

48
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:46,040
In other words, the microphone seemed just like at home if somebody got up to your volume

49
00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,520
control and turned it down slowly.

50
00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:57,040
Now according to two private citizens, possibly many more, but two of them that knew enough

51
00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:04,320
how to record this even at that low volume told me that this was the balance of the statement.

52
00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,080
I will read it for you.

53
00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:16,960
For the last six months our committee has been working with a Senate committee which is investigating

54
00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,320
UFOs.

55
00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:26,440
If the hearings are held in open hearing, I feel it will prove beyond doubt that the

56
00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,560
flying saucers are real.

57
00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:36,440
In order to secure the information we need, we suggest that all of the citizens write

58
00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,840
to and at this point there was a true cut.

59
00:05:40,840 --> 00:05:42,840
There was absolutely no sound.

60
00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:50,840
Now according to a lip reader that contacted me, I have been told that the last two words

61
00:05:50,840 --> 00:05:55,720
were your congressman.

62
00:05:55,720 --> 00:06:01,720
Now no sooner had the video cut to Douglas Edwards, who was the emcee of the show, when

63
00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,400
the telephones began to ring.

64
00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:10,000
Now actually a large number of viewers wanted to know what Keeho had said and they also

65
00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,360
wanted to know what had happened.

66
00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,800
Many of them naturally were crying censorship.

67
00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:22,600
And within hours a series of statements were issued to the wire services.

68
00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:26,480
To them attributed to CBS spokesman.

69
00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:32,320
And also a phone report was made by Irving Tunick, the writer of the show who sat in

70
00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:33,880
for Kenneth Arnold.

71
00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:38,360
And of course actually I'm the one that received that report.

72
00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:43,520
Now I've got a lot of things to sort of straighten out with you first so that you'll know exactly

73
00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,920
what took place on that telecast.

74
00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:52,680
And of course we'll hear statements from Major Keeho and from many of the other people, but

75
00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:57,560
before we get into that part of the discussion, let me take just a moment to talk about one

76
00:06:57,560 --> 00:06:58,800
of our sponsors.

77
00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,920
Now before we get back with our discussion and I might add that we'll be hearing from

78
00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:10,920
Cortland Hastings, Jules B. St. Germain, Major Keeho, in case you're not aware of this, Major

79
00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,160
Keeho is director of NICAP.

80
00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,680
National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena.

81
00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:27,200
They're located at 1536 Connecticut Avenue, Washington, 6 D.C.

82
00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,200
This is the non-profit organization.

83
00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:35,600
Now before we get back into the discussion and I would suggest to you to call your friends

84
00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,000
and neighbors and tell them to join us tonight.

85
00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,960
At 710 in your dial this is WOR Radio, your station in New York.

86
00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,720
It's important to have them with us because this is a very, very important discussion

87
00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:47,720
this morning.

88
00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:53,360
Believe me, that was a very, very exciting night because I know according to the letters

89
00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:59,200
and telegrams that I receive, people were very, very concerned about the fact that Major

90
00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,640
Keeho had been cut off.

91
00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,560
That was Wednesday night, the 22nd of January.

92
00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:09,960
Now we went on with the party line at midnight that night.

93
00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,480
I don't know if you call it that night or the following morning, but just in a matter

94
00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:22,080
of seconds we were into the morning of January the 23rd.

95
00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:26,160
And we discussed that Armstrong Circle Theater telecast.

96
00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,280
It was sort of a documentary.

97
00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:32,240
It was about flying saucers.

98
00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:37,200
And I was quite amazed why Mr. Kenneth Arnold did not show up.

99
00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:46,840
And however, in the morning of January 23rd, I received a telegram from Irv Tunick.

100
00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:53,960
Now Mr. Tunick was the writer of the Armstrong Circle Theater for that particular telecast.

101
00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:55,760
Irv Tunick.

102
00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:57,280
Now let me read the telegram.

103
00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,520
I have it in front of me now.

104
00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:05,760
It's addressed to Long John Neville Radio Station WOR New York.

105
00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:11,120
K, that's a funny thing, K. I don't know what K means for.

106
00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:18,680
As a writer of Armstrong Circle Theater, extremely anxious to give you all the facts on the Keeho

107
00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:24,080
incident, have been up since five.

108
00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:33,800
And the need of sleep badly would appreciate your call if you really want authentic report.

109
00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:42,560
Now at that time when I received that telegram, I contacted Mr. Irv Tunick at his home.

110
00:09:42,560 --> 00:09:48,680
I might also say in the telegram he included his home phone number, which I have deleted

111
00:09:48,680 --> 00:09:52,720
because I don't think it should be given out in the air.

112
00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,880
Now we recorded that conversation.

113
00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,280
It was a beeper phone conversation.

114
00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:06,320
So that you can be brought up to date what Mr. Tunick had to say about that particular

115
00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:10,920
telecast, we're going to play that back for you right now.

116
00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:12,320
Do you have that set up, Tommy?

117
00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:18,680
All right, let's hear that telephone conversation that I had with Irv Tunick, the writer of the

118
00:10:18,680 --> 00:10:23,880
Armstrong Circle Theater, on the morning of January 23rd.

119
00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:24,880
Hello?

120
00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:25,880
Hello?

121
00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:26,880
Mr. Tunick?

122
00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:27,880
Hello, I'm Irv Tunick.

123
00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:28,880
I'm Irv Tunick.

124
00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:29,880
I'm also Irv Tunick.

125
00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,880
Fine, Mr. Tunick, you know we're on the air on a beeper phone.

126
00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:33,880
That's great.

127
00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:34,880
All right.

128
00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:35,880
Is that all right, sir?

129
00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:36,880
Certainly.

130
00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:38,680
Fine, and unfortunately I did not get your number.

131
00:10:38,680 --> 00:10:42,760
I had no knowledge of your call until this very moment when the telegram was delivered

132
00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:43,760
to me.

133
00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:48,880
All right, Mr. Tunick, are you aware of the fact that we've been talking about it today?

134
00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,880
Yes, I caught it coming home from the studio in my car.

135
00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:52,880
Uh-huh.

136
00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:59,880
I got home about 12.25, caught it that time, and very honestly I've just got the sense

137
00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:00,880
of the strain.

138
00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:01,880
I can understand.

139
00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:02,880
Well, I'm sorry.

140
00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:03,880
I didn't get that information.

141
00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,880
Well, what actually happened, Mr. Tunick?

142
00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:08,880
Well, let me give you the details first of all.

143
00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:14,880
Let me correct you things that evidently reports coming to you were not quite right.

144
00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,880
First of all, to my knowledge, Major Captain Rupel is not in town.

145
00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,880
Is it to your knowledge, Rupel is not in town?

146
00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:26,880
No, the last conversation we had with Captain Rupel was that he could not get a believe

147
00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,880
of absence from his position in California.

148
00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:34,880
And it was for that reason in Maine that he was not on the program.

149
00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:36,880
It was purely on his part.

150
00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:41,880
We originally did ask him to come and we would have liked to have him.

151
00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:46,880
Oh, I hope that I did not imply that you did not invite him.

152
00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:51,880
It was told to me that he was invited and that he was billed.

153
00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:58,880
In other words, that he was programmed, but I have been told, and this I do not know from

154
00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:03,880
Rupel, but I have been told that he did not want to go on the program the last minute

155
00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:05,880
that he sent a wire and canceled.

156
00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,880
I have no knowledge of any such wire in my conversation with Captain Rupel,

157
00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,880
especially rather in eagerness to come on the program.

158
00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:18,880
So, I know nothing further about any caligrams if any did arise.

159
00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,880
And as he was being in town, he is a surprise to me.

160
00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:24,880
The last I know I spoke to him in California.

161
00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:26,880
Kenneth Arnold is in town, is that right, too?

162
00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:28,880
Mr. Arnold came into town Monday.

163
00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:29,880
I see.

164
00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,880
We brought him into town from Boise, Idaho.

165
00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:39,880
We had previously over a period of a couple of weeks made arrangements to him and his wife.

166
00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,880
We brought them both in and we put them up here in New York.

167
00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:43,880
Yes.

168
00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:45,880
He appeared every husband for two days.

169
00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:50,880
This morning, we received a telegram that he would not appear.

170
00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:52,880
And he did not appear.

171
00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:53,880
As a result, I had appeared here.

172
00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:55,880
You know, I kind of saw the inform.

173
00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,880
Well, Mr. Tuning, may I ask you this question?

174
00:12:58,880 --> 00:12:59,880
Sure.

175
00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:04,880
Did he say in his telegram why he didn't want to appear?

176
00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,880
Well, very honestly, and I'm being extremely honest, I did not see it coming at the telegram.

177
00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:14,880
I understand that he sent telegram to the producer and to newspapers around town,

178
00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:16,880
and getting his reasons.

179
00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:22,880
I believe he felt that there was not enough time being given to his side of the story.

180
00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:26,880
Now, in that regard, we have a signed statement from H.E.O.

181
00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,880
in which he states that our program was handled objectively and fairly.

182
00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:31,880
And that...

183
00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,880
Was this a statement that was signed after the program, sir?

184
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:38,880
No, it was a statement that was signed much before the program and on the end,

185
00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:40,880
when we heard that Mr. Arnold would not appear.

186
00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:41,880
Oh, I see.

187
00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:48,880
Now, after the very, well, shall we call it, the FAT incident that occurred,

188
00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:53,880
I worked very closely with the major, K.O. and if you call him incidentally,

189
00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:59,880
I don't want to mention where he's staying, but I have that information and I can get it to you.

190
00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:00,880
I'm sure he'll...

191
00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:01,880
No, no, give it on the air.

192
00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:03,880
We're on the air now.

193
00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:05,880
Yes, I won't do it.

194
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:07,880
But he will verify what I'm doing, you know.

195
00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:09,880
I worked with him very hard.

196
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:15,880
He cooperated with me beautifully and I think I did the script more or less as he wanted it.

197
00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:23,880
When he went on the air, he began to make the statement as quoted by yourself

198
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:24,880
and Mr. Sanderson...

199
00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:25,880
Yes, I am Sanderson.

200
00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:26,880
That's right.

201
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,880
He did make that statement at that time, the director and the producer,

202
00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:36,880
working under CBS regulations had to flip the key and cut the audio

203
00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,880
because we did not know what statement was coming out.

204
00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,880
The statement had not been approved by the continuity,

205
00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,880
as you know, must be done on that work show.

206
00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:51,880
We did not know if the Senate subcommittee mentioned had approved this statement

207
00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:59,880
and in view of that fact, and as I say, by regulation, they had to cut the speech

208
00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:03,880
and no one felt worse about it than the people who had cast the program.

209
00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,880
Well, then actually the next question that I would normally ask...

210
00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,880
I cannot ask because you're not going to give it to me anyway.

211
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,880
In other words, you would not be in a position to tell me what he said

212
00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:15,880
during the time that the mic was cut off.

213
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:16,880
No, I was not being...

214
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:17,880
I understand.

215
00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,880
I do know that following the show, I and S called

216
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:23,880
and he did give them the statement.

217
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:28,880
And also after the program, they again signed another statement.

218
00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:29,880
Yes.

219
00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,880
In which he stated that he regretted the incident.

220
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,880
He was not aware of these regulations.

221
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:44,880
He had been committed a certain amount of ad lib during the course of his presentation

222
00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:49,880
and he did not realize that a statement such as this did not fall into the ad lib category.

223
00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:54,880
Mr. Tonic, I am a Johnny cum lately in this business.

224
00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,880
I am much more lately in the flying.

225
00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:02,880
I was never familiar with that ruling.

226
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,880
I mean, we don't have it in radio anyway.

227
00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:11,880
Are you saying then that if I were to be interviewed by somebody on television

228
00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:13,880
that we would have to have a prepared interview?

229
00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:14,880
No, no, no, no.

230
00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,880
When you have an interview program, obviously it's an ad lib program.

231
00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,880
But when a program is scripted, must pass through continuity acceptance.

232
00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,880
Now you know that as well as I do.

233
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,880
And all of the material is placed on calipron.

234
00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:35,880
Now obviously no one expects anyone to follow calipron word by word.

235
00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:37,880
There is a certain line it's given.

236
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:42,880
However, then put yourself in this position if you're the potential other director.

237
00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:43,880
Yes, the statement comes out.

238
00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,880
I am now going to say something that has never been revealed before.

239
00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:49,880
You don't know what that statement is.

240
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,880
You have no idea if it's been cleared by the proper authorities while being mentioned.

241
00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,880
If it's not been cleared by continuity acceptance,

242
00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:03,880
you are at the mercy of the person who is making the statement.

243
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:10,880
And it's a general rule that at that time the director has no prerogative but to cut the show.

244
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,880
Now this is a fact and we're still awful about it.

245
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:15,880
This is not a matter of censorship.

246
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:20,880
As it turned out, as I believe, this statement was fairly innocuous.

247
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:25,880
And possibly might have gone just the way it was on the app.

248
00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,880
In other words, it was not a world-shattering statement.

249
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:30,880
No, I don't think it was.

250
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:32,880
You heard the statement, I didn't hear the statement.

251
00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:33,880
No, I was in the control room.

252
00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:34,880
Oh, you didn't hear it?

253
00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,880
No, you see we cut the audio and we lost it in the control room.

254
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:39,880
Oh yes, that's true, I didn't realize it.

255
00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:44,880
So I do know that following the show, he's I.N.S. Gold.

256
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:46,880
And he gave them the statement.

257
00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,880
But it was strictly a matter of routine.

258
00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,880
I mean it was not a question of any type of censorship.

259
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,880
As a writer, I am very much sensitive to points of censorship.

260
00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:01,880
And I can assure you that this turned out if we do it one little bit,

261
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,880
nor did the Air Force in any way control our program.

262
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,880
The original idea for the program was our own.

263
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,880
We said about it, just as we said about any other program,

264
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,880
we were very pleased when the Air Force offered us cooperation.

265
00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:17,880
When they opened their files to us,

266
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,880
as a matter of fact, I had the files in my home for a number of days.

267
00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:22,880
Working on the show.

268
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:27,880
Mr. Tunick, I had just one more question.

269
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:29,880
Yes, it doesn't bore your question.

270
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:31,880
May I just correct one of the statements?

271
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:32,880
Yes.

272
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:34,880
Mr. Sanderson said it was cut off for a minute and a half.

273
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:36,880
It was cut off for exactly 18 seconds.

274
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:38,880
18 seconds.

275
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,880
I think, I don't know, Mr. Sanderson made the statement.

276
00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,880
I know that I made it before I thought it was approximately a minute and a half.

277
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:45,880
And I apologize.

278
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:47,880
I was not timing it, believe me.

279
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,880
Now if you would like to get Mr. Kehoe's statement,

280
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:52,880
the peace sign, following the program.

281
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:53,880
Yes.

282
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:55,880
That statement would be available to you tomorrow

283
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,880
if you call Talent Associates the producers of the show.

284
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:00,880
What is the...

285
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:01,880
Talent Associates.

286
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:03,880
Talent Associates.

287
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,880
Their address is 41 East 50th.

288
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:08,880
I won't get the phone number.

289
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:09,880
No, no.

290
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:11,880
I can find that out.

291
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:12,880
All right.

292
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,880
I was just wondering why, in other words,

293
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:21,880
I'm certainly not being critical because I am not a critic,

294
00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,880
but I was just wondering why on a program

295
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,880
that was a documentary program

296
00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,880
and you had so many different angles

297
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:33,880
of the flying saucers involved,

298
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:39,880
how is it that somebody like Damseke or Mantasso,

299
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,880
or one of the people who have made the claim

300
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,880
that they've had a physical contact with Martians or Venugians,

301
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,880
how is it one of those we're not put in the program?

302
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:51,880
Well, a very good reason because we were suffering

303
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,880
under what might be called a students' agency of time.

304
00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:56,880
I see.

305
00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:58,880
After all, Don Kehoe does make the point,

306
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:00,880
and I think a valid point,

307
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,880
that he did not have equal time with the Air Force.

308
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,880
That was not because of any other reason except time.

309
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:07,880
Yes.

310
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:08,880
We are...

311
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,880
Actually, we had to cut 12 minutes out of the show

312
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:13,880
after our first crash.

313
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,880
And that's the only reason, because we have no action to arouse.

314
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,880
We're trying to prepare an objective,

315
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:20,880
an espousal program.

316
00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,880
Mr. Tunick, another question comes out of my mind.

317
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:28,880
That's if you had planned on having a physical contact

318
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,880
with Kenneth Arnold on the program.

319
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,880
We know that Repelt, he couldn't get away from his job,

320
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:39,880
but you did bring Mr. and Mrs. Arnold into New York.

321
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:40,880
Yes, Captain.

322
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:42,880
And they were going to be on the program.

323
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:43,880
Well, why not?

324
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:44,880
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

325
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:45,880
No, they were going to be on the program.

326
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:46,880
I mean, he was going...

327
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:47,880
I'm sorry, sir.

328
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:48,880
He was going to be on the program.

329
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,880
What happened to the time that he was going to have on the program?

330
00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:52,880
I pinched him.

331
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:53,880
I set in for him.

332
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:54,880
Because it was done.

333
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:56,880
You see, we had no notifications.

334
00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,880
He sent us a telegram, which arrived about one o'clock this afternoon.

335
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:01,880
I'm familiar with the telegram.

336
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,880
That's right, and we were caught.

337
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,880
You know, after all, we're all on telepon,

338
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:09,880
everything is set in the show.

339
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:11,880
We were ready to go into our run-through.

340
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,880
And suddenly, one of our guests just doesn't appear.

341
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:16,880
Well, what do we do?

342
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:18,880
We kind of jelly-rigged it.

343
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,880
I set in for him and I read the lines.

344
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:22,880
Right.

345
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:23,880
As we caught.

346
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,880
And we felt very badly about it.

347
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,880
We do think that in all fairness,

348
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,880
we should have been informed at least in person,

349
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,880
not to be informed by a telegram.

350
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:35,880
All right.

351
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:37,880
I don't think your service was done to anyone.

352
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:38,880
Matt, we got.

353
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,880
Well, Mr. Tunick, I have on this meter phone

354
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:43,880
an eight-second delay.

355
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:44,880
Go ahead.

356
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:49,880
And some of my guests here are only hearing our kind of call.

357
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,880
My guests here are only hearing our conversation now.

358
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:54,880
They're picking it up.

359
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:56,880
So if you give me just a second or two,

360
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:58,880
I just want to see if any of the others,

361
00:21:58,880 --> 00:21:59,880
they have headsets on.

362
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:00,880
That's the way they listen to it.

363
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,880
And I just want to find out if there's anything else

364
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:05,880
that possibly Ivan or Charles Leedham

365
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:07,880
or any of the other guests would like to ask.

366
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,880
Oh, yes.

367
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,880
One question that Ivan Sanderson has raised.

368
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:19,880
Why wasn't Arnold's name mentioned by the Air Force?

369
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:21,880
By the Air Force?

370
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,880
I don't know why his name wasn't mentioned by the Air Force.

371
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:29,880
The only reason that I think that Ivan brought that question up

372
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,880
is the fact that he was former head

373
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,880
of the United States Air Force Project Blue Book.

374
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:36,880
You mean Rue Pelt?

375
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:37,880
Yes.

376
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,880
I thought you asked about Kenneth Arnold.

377
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:42,880
I think you asked me if Arnold's name was mentioned.

378
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:43,880
Why Rue Pelt's name?

379
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:44,880
Yes.

380
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,880
I have to give it to them in three minutes or I just don't know.

381
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,880
I mean, it just didn't come up, but I recall at any time

382
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,880
that they would mention him.

383
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:55,880
I didn't know why they would.

384
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:57,880
It's only was in no case deleted.

385
00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:58,880
Yes.

386
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,880
Also, well, you've already answered the question.

387
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:03,880
Ivan is once again writing me a note here

388
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:05,880
and he was wondering,

389
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,880
wait a minute, what's his name?

390
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,880
Well, Ivan, just one.

391
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:13,880
I want to pick this up a moment and finish this up with him.

392
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:14,880
You want it?

393
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:15,880
Yes, sure.

394
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:17,880
Just a moment, Mr. Tonics.

395
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:19,880
We have some difficulties here to get,

396
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:21,880
but Ivan would like to talk to you a moment

397
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,880
on the vapor phone to get some additional information.

398
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:27,880
Just a moment, sir.

399
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:28,880
Hi, Mr. Doosan.

400
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:29,880
How do you do that?

401
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:31,880
It's one thing I'm very interested in.

402
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:33,880
I noticed that the gentleman, I think, from the Air Force,

403
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:35,880
he kept on saying,

404
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:37,880
he never mentioned Kenneth Arnold's name,

405
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:39,880
but said that he was one of the pilots

406
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,880
who was looking for a lost plane around about...

407
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:43,880
Now, wait a minute.

408
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:44,880
You have that little wrong.

409
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,880
It was in my section that the Kenneth Arnold sighting

410
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,880
was discussed, not in the Air Force.

411
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:51,880
The Air Force, the...

412
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:52,880
Oh, I'm sorry.

413
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:53,880
I wasn't quite sure of which it was,

414
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:55,880
because I haven't seen it.

415
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,880
In other words, because Kenneth Arnold was not there...

416
00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:00,880
That's right. His name was not there.

417
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:02,880
No, but not mentioned, I see.

418
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:04,880
But there was the same person you were talking about,

419
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:06,880
the pilot who was looking for the lost plane.

420
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,880
Well, I don't want to get into any kind of illegal situation.

421
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:12,880
Oh, oh, oh. I think about it.

422
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:13,880
All right. I know.

423
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:15,880
I'm sorry. I shouldn't have asked that.

424
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:17,880
I just wanted to know if it was the same man,

425
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:18,880
but I understand what you mean.

426
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:20,880
You can obviously answer that question

427
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,880
if you can answer the other one.

428
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:24,880
Yes, John, again. Thank you, sir.

429
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:25,880
All right.

430
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:27,880
Well, Mr. Tunick, thank you very, very much.

431
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:28,880
Very...

432
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:29,880
I know. I'm kidding.

433
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:30,880
I can't even touch you on this.

434
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:31,880
May I thank you for the very kind words

435
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:33,880
you had to say about the program as a whole.

436
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:34,880
I enjoyed it.

437
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:36,880
Well, that's very good. We're happy.

438
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:38,880
And we really are very...

439
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:40,880
We're sad that the situation had to come up

440
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,880
because we thought it was a big good program

441
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:45,880
that the audience would be interested in.

442
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:47,880
And we don't want the audience to feel

443
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,880
that they've been cheated in any way.

444
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:50,880
Fine.

445
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:51,880
We're an emergency emergency.

446
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:52,880
Go understand that.

447
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:54,880
Fine. Thank you very much, Mr. Tunick.

448
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:55,880
Good night, sir.

449
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,880
Well, that was the telephone conversation,

450
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,880
beeper phone conversation that I had with Irv Tunick

451
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,880
on the morning of January 23rd.

452
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:09,880
Actually, that was the morning after the

453
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:12,880
Armstrong Circle Theater telecast,

454
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,880
the one that they had in reference to

455
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,880
Flying Saucers with

456
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,880
Major Donnelly Keyhole,

457
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:23,880
and they were supposed to have Kenneth Arnold,

458
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,880
but Mr. Arnold did not show.

459
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:28,880
Before I continue along,

460
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,880
and believe me, we've got some exciting things for you.

461
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,880
Of course, we'll be talking with Major Donnelly Keyhole,

462
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,880
Cartland Hastings, Jules B. St. Germain,

463
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:39,880
and we'll get a lot of information.

464
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:41,880
But before we get into that,

465
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,880
let me take a moment to talk about...

466
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,880
Now, getting back to our discussion of the morning,

467
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,880
Kenneth Arnold is the man who

468
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,880
really coined the phrase,

469
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:56,880
Flying Saucers.

470
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,880
This is back in the year of 1947.

471
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,880
And Kenneth Arnold is a very respected person,

472
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:10,880
a man who I might add is considered to be

473
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,880
just about tops in his field,

474
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,880
as not only a private pilot,

475
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,880
but also a very keen businessman,

476
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,880
and just about everybody in the Flying Saucer field

477
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,880
has great respect for Kenneth Arnold.

478
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:30,880
Now, Mr. Arnold, it had been suggested by

479
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,880
Mr. Irv Tunick and Mr. Robert Costello

480
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,880
of the Armstrong Circle Theater

481
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,880
that he come into New York to participate in this program.

482
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,880
And I'd like to add at this time

483
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:48,880
that he was given a check for $250.

484
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,880
Just about three weeks ago,

485
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,880
he sent me that check that was made out to him.

486
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,880
He endorsed it over to the W-O-R Christmas Fund.

487
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,880
He would not accept payment,

488
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,880
although it did cost him a considerable amount of money

489
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:09,880
to come in from Boise, Idaho,

490
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,880
and he had hotel expenses,

491
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,880
and his fee of $250,

492
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,880
he turned it over to my favorite charity,

493
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,880
which happens to be the W-O-R Christmas Fund,

494
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,880
and I think that that was a large sum, too, $250.

495
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,880
So again, I'd like to just say thanks to Kenneth Arnold

496
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,880
for turning that check over to me.

497
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:41,880
Now, the following day, again, January 23rd,

498
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,880
I made every effort to get in touch with Kenneth Arnold.

499
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,880
I may also say that I tried to get in touch with Major Keyhole,

500
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,880
but that seemed to be impossible.

501
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,880
I was told that Major Keyhole was not talking.

502
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,880
I heard a lot of rumors, but actually Major Keyhole

503
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:01,880
held a press conference,

504
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,880
and I did not know about this until, oh, I'd say 10 or 11 o'clock

505
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:07,880
in the morning.

506
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,880
That is the morning of January 23rd.

507
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:15,880
However, about 2 o'clock in the afternoon,

508
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,880
I was fortunate enough to get in touch with Kenneth Arnold.

509
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:26,880
I might say that I am very grateful to a lady

510
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:28,880
who made the arrangements for me,

511
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,880
and I am talking about Virginia Belmont.

512
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,880
Virginia Belmont owns the Belmont Bird and Kennel shop

513
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,880
in Radio City, and she made the connection for me

514
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,880
giving Mr. Arnold my private phone number.

515
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,880
He called me and I said to him that I would like to talk to him

516
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,880
on the beeper phone so that our listeners could understand

517
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,880
exactly what happened, and he said he was agreeable,

518
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,880
and he permitted me to have his private phone number,

519
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,880
and I called him on the phone, and I had the following conversation.

520
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,880
So, Tommy, if you will please, Tommy Reynolds,

521
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,880
that particular tape, that beeper telephone conversation

522
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,880
that I had with Kenneth Arnold in the afternoon of January 23rd,

523
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,880
I'd like the listeners to hear it now.

524
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:22,880
Hello, Mr. Kenneth Arnold?

525
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:24,880
That's right.

526
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,880
This is Long John from W-O-R, sir.

527
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:32,880
I'm very happy to have this opportunity of talking with you.

528
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,880
I'm sorry, though, that you weren't able to join us on the program,

529
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:42,880
but I was wondering, did you hear any of the program that we had on last night

530
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,880
in reference to the Armstrong Circle Theater program?

531
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:51,880
I did, Long John, and in fact I stayed up the entire night

532
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,880
to hear the entire program.

533
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,880
Well, believe me, I'm very proud, Mr. Arnold.

534
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,880
Actually, we need the listeners, so we've added a couple.

535
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:03,880
Mr. Arnold, I know you're a very busy man,

536
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,880
but very frankly there's a couple of questions I would like to ask.

537
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:14,880
First of all, a Mr. Irving Tunick, who is the writer of that particular program

538
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,880
that was on the Armstrong Circle Theater last night,

539
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,880
told me during a two-way beeper telephone conversation

540
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:30,880
that the Armstrong people paid for you and Mrs. Arnold

541
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,880
to come from Boise, Idaho to New York,

542
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,880
and I understand they picked up the tab at the hotel,

543
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:43,880
and that you rehearsed for two days, and at the end of that time,

544
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:48,880
in other words, the day of the broadcast or the telecast,

545
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,880
you sent a telegram and you failed to appear.

546
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:53,880
Now, is that what happened, Mr. Arnold?

547
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:55,880
That's right.

548
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,880
In other words, you just failed to appear.

549
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,880
That's right.

550
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,880
Would you care to comment on that, sir?

551
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:13,880
I think if I am able to give you the background as to what induced me to come to New York,

552
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:19,880
you as well as your listeners would better understand my position

553
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,880
as to not appearing on the program.

554
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,880
Well, we'd certainly like to hear your side of it, Mr. Arnold.

555
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:33,880
It was represented to me by a long-distance telephone conversation

556
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:42,880
that the program, which was going to appear on the subject of UFO

557
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:48,880
on the Columbia Broadcasting System television network,

558
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:58,880
was to be an honest, straightforward program giving a clear, concise picture

559
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:07,880
of all of the really important knowledge that has been gathered about this subject

560
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:13,880
since my first report of June 24th of 1947.

561
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,880
That's the time when you came up with that term, flying saucer.

562
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,880
You're the originator of it, isn't that right, Mr. Arnold?

563
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,880
Not exactly long, John.

564
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:31,880
The term was actually coined by a United Press correspondent

565
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:37,880
who put the question to me as how did they fly?

566
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:44,880
And I replied they flew as if you would take a saucer and skip it across the water

567
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,880
in a rough, erratic fashion.

568
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:59,880
That's how the name, I think, became, as we look at it today, UFO or flying saucer.

569
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:02,880
I still think, Mr. Arnold, you could take a bow for me.

570
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:04,880
Well, let's get back into now.

571
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:11,880
In other words, when you were planning to appear on the Armstrong Circle Theater,

572
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,880
you were under the impression that you would be able to bring out all of the things

573
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,880
that you had acquired as far as knowledge is concerned about this phenomenon

574
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:26,880
known as flying saucers since June 24th, 1947,

575
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:34,880
right up to and including this day of January 23rd, 1958.

576
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:36,880
Is that about the size of it?

577
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:45,880
To a major extent, it was, long, John, except that being that the subject of flying saucers

578
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:53,880
has become such a complex problem since the time I first made my report,

579
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:59,880
it would have been impossible to, you might say, project in a short time

580
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:04,880
all of the pertinent facts that have been gathered.

581
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:14,880
So I was led to believe, and it was entirely at my choice to appear on the program

582
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:23,880
if I was satisfied that it was as it was represented to me in Boise, Idaho.

583
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:33,880
The letter I received from these parties that induced me to make this long trip,

584
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:39,880
dated December 31st of 1957,

585
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:46,880
assured me that before I left Boise, Idaho, and I will quote from the letter,

586
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:51,880
as soon as we have the first draft of the script ready, we will forward it to you.

587
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:59,880
I never received a draft of this script, but was assured over the telephone

588
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:08,880
that they wanted me to come and that they knew that I would be more than happy to appear

589
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:13,880
the program, there was no question as to the representation

590
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:18,880
and that they would discuss that with me when I came to New York

591
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,880
and had a chance to see what was going to be portrayed.

592
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:29,880
Signed this letter that was mailed on December 31st, 1957.

593
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:36,880
The letter is of, on the stationery of the talent associates limited,

594
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:44,880
41 East 50th Street, New York 22, New York, and it is signed by Mar-Dette Edwards

595
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:46,880
of the editorial department.

596
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:53,880
I see. So you decided after talking to them on the phone after receiving that letter

597
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:59,880
dated December 31st, 1957, that you would make the trip to New York.

598
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:02,880
In other words, you had confidence in them. Is that right, Mr. Rodney?

599
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:08,880
I had all the confidence that I could be assured of over the telephone

600
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:14,880
and though I've turned down many requests of this type, it seemed as though

601
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:19,880
that this was going to be projected as represented and I was anxious of course

602
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:30,880
to see that the dream story as far as we know was being portrayed for public interest.

603
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:40,880
Now, Mr. Arnold, when you did arrive here in New York, I assume that you went into

604
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:46,880
conference with Mr. Robert Costello, the producer and with Mr. Irving Tunick, the writer.

605
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:47,880
Is that true, sir?

606
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:48,880
That's true.

607
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,880
And you saw the script that they had prepared for you?

608
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,880
I saw the script that they had prepared.

609
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:03,880
Every participant in the program, it seemed, was continually changing everything in the script.

610
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:11,880
So actually, no one, I don't believe, really knew what the final outcome of it was going to be.

611
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:17,880
I see. In other words, even after the second day of rehearsal, you were not confident

612
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,880
that this was going to be the last and final draft. Is that right, sir?

613
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:22,880
Right.

614
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:30,880
Now, when did you make up your mind that you would not participate in this program, Mr. Arnold?

615
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:43,880
I made my final decision, I think, about one o'clock of the day of the program of January 26,

616
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,880
I mean January 27, or 22nd.

617
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:48,880
January 22, I'm sorry.

618
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,880
January 22nd, about one o'clock of the program.

619
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:53,880
Yeah, about one o'clock in the afternoon.

620
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:54,880
Yeah.

621
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:56,880
Now, that's only a couple of days ago, sir.

622
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:02,880
What actually made you make that last-minute decision at that time?

623
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:07,880
Did you see a revised edition of the script that you didn't like or something?

624
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:20,880
The entire program had not actually been reviewed as of the day before it was to be projected.

625
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:30,880
The secretary of research development for our government had never appeared and we didn't know

626
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:36,880
whether his script was going to be as printed or whether it was going to be entirely changed.

627
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:45,880
And even the people that I talked to on the program that had to do with it were unable to give me a definite answer about that.

628
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:46,880
I see.

629
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:54,880
I understand from Mr. Tunic who spoke to me on our Beeper telephone and I think you heard that conversation

630
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:56,880
because you were listening to the program.

631
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:05,880
He mentioned about a telegram that he did not read, but he was aware of the fact that it had been received

632
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,880
evidently by the producer Robert Costello.

633
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:16,880
I wonder if you happen to have a copy of that telegram with you that you could read to me

634
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,880
or if you feel that it's of a personal nature.

635
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,880
Certainly, Mr. Arnold, I wouldn't insist that you read it.

636
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:24,880
I'd let you pass judgment.

637
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:33,880
I can't very well say that it is too personal a nature because the telegram stated at least five principles

638
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:44,880
as to some background as to why I was not going to appear on the program and copies of this telegram

639
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:58,880
were also sent to two of the large New York newspapers as well as representative of Newsweek magazine, Roger Gander.

640
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:05,880
Do you know if a copy of the telegram appeared in any one of the two New York newspapers?

641
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:12,880
I do not know. The papers they get out here, I'm not in New York City itself right now.

642
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,880
I don't mention where you are either, sir, because I have not devolved to our listeners your phone number

643
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:22,880
because I know many of them who are fans of yours would like to be able to contact you

644
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:24,880
and I know that you'd like to get some sleep.

645
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,880
So don't mention the town that you're in, please.

646
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:35,880
All right. Now, Mr. Arnold, would you be kind enough to read the telegram to me?

647
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:42,880
The copy of the telegram that you have requested.

648
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:55,880
As the date and the time was January 22, 1958 at 2.44 p.m. in the afternoon,

649
00:40:55,880 --> 00:41:02,880
it was sent to a Mr. Robert Testello, Mr. Ivan Poonich,

650
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:14,880
in care of the Armstrong Circle Theater CBS Studio 58841 9th Avenue, corner of 55th Street, New York.

651
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,880
It is as follows.

652
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:28,880
The persons or agencies who project information of national interest have a serious responsibility.

653
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:35,880
A correctly informed public is one of the greatest assets this nation can have.

654
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:44,880
This is to inform you that I will not be a participant on any program that obviously

655
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:53,880
misrepresent and distort facts available on any subject broadcast for the public interest.

656
00:41:53,880 --> 00:42:00,880
Nor could I allow any photographs or material properly copyrighted to be used on any program

657
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,880
without written permission of the owners.

658
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,880
Signed Kenneth Arnold and there is a P.S.

659
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:18,880
I am not making an appearance on any television program on January 22, 1958.

660
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,880
Well, I don't think you pulled any punches, Mr. Arnold.

661
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:29,880
I was wondering if, I'm quite interested, I'm not really great at shorthand,

662
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:35,880
but I tried to make some quick notes on this just to question you about,

663
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:40,880
I hope I have it down correctly, however on the tape it is correct, sir.

664
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:51,880
You mentioned about not wanting to participate in a program that I think you said misrepresent or distort facts.

665
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:56,880
I'm paraphrasing that, I'm not quoting you accurately, sir.

666
00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:02,880
Do you feel that the program, first of all, did you see the program last night, sir?

667
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:04,880
Yes, I did.

668
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:15,880
And do you feel after viewing the program that there was a certain amount of misrepresentation and distortion of facts?

669
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:26,880
In this respect, mainly, you didn't quite read the part of the program or the telegram as I projected it to you properly.

670
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:44,880
In this way, I said this is to inform, this is the part of the telegram, this is to inform you that I will not be a participant on any program that obviously misrepresent and distort facts available on any subject.

671
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:45,880
I see.

672
00:43:45,880 --> 00:44:09,880
In other words, I know a great deal of demonstrable facts on this subject that were completely ignored even when I sent to the studio photographs and photographs of things that I know and could substantially prove to be true.

673
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:11,880
I see.

674
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:25,880
Mr. Arnold, do you have any comment to make on the fact that Major Keyhole, the last part of his statement, was cut off the air?

675
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,880
Do you have any comment on that? Or are you aware of the fact that it was cut off?

676
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:30,880
Yes.

677
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:32,880
This was done intentionally, you know.

678
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:33,880
Pardon?

679
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:38,880
This was done intentionally. This was not an accident. This was not faulty equipment.

680
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:40,880
I realize that.

681
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,880
What do you think about that, sir?

682
00:44:44,880 --> 00:45:11,880
Mr. Keyhole, as anyone participating on a program, is that a terrifically disadvantage or a terrific disadvantage, I should say, due to the fact that you have to sign a release if you appear on the program, stating that everything that is going to be stated, of which I'm sure Mr. Keyhole didn't know the entire story, because I don't believe anyone knew.

683
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:38,880
At least I couldn't find out. He had to sign this if he wanted to be a participant. I refused to sign mine because I had not, as pre-arranged, the agreement between the program director and myself, given the opportunity to actually see the entire program protected before it went on the air.

684
00:45:38,880 --> 00:46:02,880
Are you familiar with any of the details about Captain Ruppelt? According to many of the program listings in the newspapers, it was announced that Ruppelt would appear on that program. Do you know if he arrived in New York and possibly decided the last minute not to participate in the same manner that you're just around?

685
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:18,880
I don't know anything about Mr. Ruppelt. My impression, and I read that Clarence F. Child, an Eastern airline captain, was going to appear only by reading it in the paper. I think it was the Tribune.

686
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:44,880
I learned at the studio, I can't quote who it was, it told me it was one of the officials there. I assumed that Eastern Airlines, which is, I think, managed by Eddie Rickenbacher, refused to let him come and be on the program. That, of course, was just hearsay. I had no way of verifying it.

687
00:46:45,880 --> 00:47:04,880
In other words, then, I think possibly we could say that although we all believe in freedom of speech, evidently freedom of speech is something that we can have after approval by the authorities.

688
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:26,880
Well, it looks as though that through no fault of my own, I have placed myself here. I have been placed in a very precarious position and I hesitate in making a remark on that.

689
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:42,880
I don't feel in any way that I'm an authority on the principles of what is represented in our constitution. I interpret them, I think, like lots of people, the best way I can.

690
00:47:43,880 --> 00:48:02,880
And my impression, of course, is that these things, anything that a man wishes to say, he has the right to say it as long as it in no way causes injury to anyone else of which can be settled by new process of law.

691
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:26,880
Now, my telegram in no way incriminates, I don't believe, anyone. I simply stated my principles and my principles pretty well established my position as far as being a participant in a program that was for the public interest.

692
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:39,880
And I wanted to be absolutely sure of the facts before I subjected myself as a representative of thousands of pilots to, well, what should I say?

693
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:51,880
It wasn't when Kenneth Arnold was important at all. It was the fact that I didn't believe that the program was treated quite fairly.

694
00:48:51,880 --> 00:49:10,880
And I don't believe that it probably was Mr. Costello or Mr. Tunick's fault in any way. It was just a circumstance that arose, probably, due to the fact that there has been so much controversy about this subject.

695
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:14,880
If you know what I mean, go on, I'm quite familiar with it.

696
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:26,880
Mr. Arnold, no doubt you heard Professor Menzel's comments about what he thought about pilots. Do you remember that comment?

697
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:27,880
Yes.

698
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,880
Would you care to say anything about it?

699
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:39,880
I received a phone call. How he got my number, I'm not sure, of this morning.

700
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:41,880
From Professor Menzel?

701
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,880
No, no, from one of the prominent pilots.

702
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:46,880
I see.

703
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:51,880
Of one of the major airlines congratulating me on my stand.

704
00:49:51,880 --> 00:50:19,880
And apparently, Mr. Menzel's ridicule of, or criticism of indirectly, of course, of pilots who are responsible every day for hundreds, probably thousands of our lives as we travel the airline wasn't too popular.

705
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:22,880
I can imagine.

706
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:29,880
One last question, sir. I'm very, very appreciative of the fact that you've given us so much of your valuable time.

707
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:40,880
Do you actually believe that the so-called flying saucers are interplanetary craft?

708
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:47,880
I don't think that you quite put your question properly.

709
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,880
Well, suppose you rephrase my question and answer it, sir.

710
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:52,880
Pardon?

711
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:57,880
Supposing you rephrase my question and answer it in your own way, sir.

712
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:07,880
What these things are that we are seeing in our skies, I don't believe it's anything to become hysterical about.

713
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,880
Let me try to put it this way.

714
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:25,880
I have no conclusions if I were to come to any conclusions, which, of course, would have to be, I think, temporary on anyone that I know of's part on this subject of things in the sky that are seized.

715
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:44,880
What would have to be based on the process of elimination, and that is that I have been pretty well demonstrated to me for nearly ten years that it is not a product of our air forces or of the air forces or ingenuity of any other country on this globe.

716
00:51:44,880 --> 00:52:03,880
And the only conclusion that I could come to, cautiously, would be that it must be of an extraterrestrial origin, whether it comes from another planet, as we interpret as a planet, is something that I certainly couldn't make a statement because that is something that I would be unable to prove.

717
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:10,880
Mr. Arnold, thank you very, very much for being kind enough to talk to me on the beeper phone.

718
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:28,880
I'm only sorry that you were not able to join us on the party line in person during your stay in New York, but we sincerely hope that if you do come back to New York at any time that you'll know that the welcome man is out in front, and you're more than welcome to be on, we'll be proud to have you.

719
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:43,880
Thank you very kindly, Alon John. I'm sorry to have been so cautious, but I do feel a way to responsibility in making a statement that would be incorrect, and I'm doing the very best I can.

720
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,880
Thank you again. Goodbye, sir.

721
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:56,880
Well, that was the beeper telephone conversation that I had with Kenneth Arnold, the man that coined the phrase, flying saucers, back in the year of 1947.

722
00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:10,880
The way I said that, you might think I had that telephone conversation in 1947. Actually, it was in 1958, January 23, 1958, just a short time ago.

723
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:24,880
Before we continue on with the discussion this morning, and I sincerely hope that maybe you'll call some of your friends and neighbors who are interested in this, because we are now talking about a very, very serious subject.

724
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:39,880
And I think you heard the opening statement that Major Keyhole made about what would happen if we had members of the Air Force in the studio with us. We don't, so you can expect something very, very exciting.

725
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:51,880
Let me, first of all, take a moment to talk about this as long as you're on with the party line. Did I just identify the station? I did. Well, I'm so happy, so proud to be on W.O.I. that I've done it twice.

726
00:53:51,880 --> 00:54:02,880
And if I were getting scaled for it, I'd get another $7.50. So what? Tommy Reynolds, my producer out there, he got very concerned that I'd doubled up on the station identification.

727
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:16,880
Now, we're going to be talking with Major Keyhole, Major Donald E. Keyhole, Director of NICAP, National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena.

728
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:28,880
And for the people who would like to contact that organization, I might also add it's a non-profit organization. You are more than welcome to take advantage of this address.

729
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:41,880
Just right to NICAP, N-I-C-A-P, NICAP, the address 1536, Connecticut Avenue, Washington, 6 D.C.

730
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:52,880
Now, we'll be talking with Major Donald E. Keyhole, Jules B. St. Germain, Cortland Hastings, and Charles Ledham. Mr. Ledham is a TV producer and an author.

731
00:54:52,880 --> 00:55:01,880
But first, we're going to break away for a few minutes, maybe five or six minutes. We're going to enjoy a little coffee out in the kitchen.

732
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:09,880
Incidentally, you know, we're not in New York tonight. We're out in the transmitter of W.O.I. that's located in Carter Rap New Jersey.

733
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:16,880
And we're going to be enjoying a little coffee and a little of a Danish pastry, and then we'll be back with you.

734
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:21,880
And I hope you call some of your friends and neighbors because you'll possibly have the opportunity.

735
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:28,880
Maybe it'll be your first time to hear Major Donald E. Keyhole. We'll be back in just a few minutes.

736
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:43,880
Major Keyhole is Director of NICAP. He is also the author of a number of books on the subject of flying saucers, including Flying Saucers from Outer Space, Published by Holt,

737
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:52,880
The Flying Saucer Conspiracy, also published by Holt, and available in your bookstores.

738
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:58,880
We have also with us this morning Cortland Hastings and Charles Ledham.

739
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:04,880
And I understand that possibly in another 30 or 40 minutes,

740
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:13,880
that we'll have the pleasure of having Jules B. St. Germain, the attorney from Lindbrook, Long Island. He'll be joining us.

741
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:19,880
Possibly some of you people remember the Armstrong Theater Telecast.

742
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:25,880
I think that that was viewed around January 22nd of this year.

743
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:36,880
And at that time, Major Keyhole, it has been suggested by many that his conversation was sort of faded out.

744
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:43,880
Some people claim that they didn't have time to let the Major complete his statement.

745
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:54,880
However, he was on camera for the entire time moving his lips, and yet what he had to say was not heard.

746
00:56:54,880 --> 00:57:00,880
We've had opinions from people associated with the Armstrong Circle Theater.

747
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:07,880
We've talked to them on our beeper phone. We've also talked with Kenneth Arnold on the beeper phone.

748
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:13,880
And this morning we have the pleasure of talking with Major Keyhole in person.

749
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:19,880
This is something we've attempted to do for some two years now.

750
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:26,880
Major Keyhole, I wonder if you could first tell some of our listeners, as well as the gentlemen sitting around the table here,

751
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:30,880
if you could tell us what NICAP is.

752
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:44,880
NICAP is a nonprofit private organization which is designed to correct and evaluate and make public all authentic information on unidentified flying objects or flying saucers.

753
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:56,880
It has memberships in 47 states, 14 foreign countries, and on its board it includes such distinguished citizens as Vice Admiral R.H. Hillen Carter,

754
00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:05,880
who used to be Director of CIA, Central Intelligence Agency, New Admiral Knowles, Colonel R.B. Emerson, Army Retired,

755
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:13,880
Major Forney, who used to be the number one investigator on UFOs for the Air Force and the Pentagon, and a number of others.

756
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:23,880
We have a panel of scientists, educators, religious men. We have a panel of experts in various fields who help evaluate sightings and other developments.

757
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:28,880
And then we try to cover these publicly in the magazine and bulletins.

758
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:37,880
And our aim is to try to get the subject out in the open and to get Congress to have open hearings so they'll finish triple way the secrecy.

759
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:43,880
Say Major Kehoe that you want the subject to be brought in the open.

760
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:49,880
What do you think should be brought out, sir? Is there something that we don't know as citizens of this country?

761
00:58:49,880 --> 00:59:00,880
There's a very great deal. In the first place, pilots in the armed forces, and in fact all members of the armed forces, are muzzled to a great degree in regard to sighting reports.

762
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:18,880
The Air Force constantly denies this, but I have in front of me here copies of the official orders, Johnup 146, Joint Chiefs of Staff Document and AFR 200, that's an Air Force order, which says that no one will discuss any unexplained sightings.

763
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:21,880
They won't release them to the press. Kehoe, of course.

764
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:29,880
What is your opinion about this Major Kehoe? What is the reason that they're trying to silence these people?

765
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:38,880
Well, for a long time the policy has been to explain away these sightings while behind the scenes they're very seriously investigating and trying to get all the answers.

766
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:43,880
They're also trying to find the secret of propulsion so that we can duplicate it.

767
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:50,880
I agree in the last phase that they're right in keeping everything they learn technically to themselves.

768
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:59,880
I think it's a great mistake to deceive the public, treat the American people like children, the way they did for a long time about the H-bomb.

769
00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:07,880
I mean, everybody was told that yes, it was something that was a little worse than an A-bomb, and they didn't let us know that we could be blown right off the map.

770
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:11,880
And for a long time missiles and submarines were in the same category.

771
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:19,880
Now right now, 40 or 50% of the country could be wiped out by missiles and subs. Now that was hushed up for a long time.

772
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:28,880
Do you think that this country is in danger from the possibility of an attack by people who may live on other planets?

773
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:38,880
I never thought so because the modern phase goes back 10 years into World War II and they've had plenty of time if they wanted to attack us.

774
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:47,880
Unless it's a very, very long-range preparation. Of course there have been a few accidents and some people view those as evidence of hostility.

775
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:57,880
But I think we're merely under observation and it's taking a long time because they are probably having difficulty in understanding us and deciding what to do.

776
01:00:57,880 --> 01:00:59,880
What do they intend to communicate?

777
01:00:59,880 --> 01:01:07,880
Pardon me. What planet do you think that these UFOs are coming from? What do you like to call them, sir?

778
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:18,880
I call them UFOs because even though you'll find the word flying saucers in the title of every book I've written, that's because a lot of people don't know what UFOs are.

779
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:22,880
They're gradually coming around to it. But it helps to make the subject a little more serious.

780
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:30,880
It's a very silly word, a term, flying saucers. It's an unfortunate thing if they call them discs, it would have helped.

781
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:38,880
Or unidentified objects. But a lot of people hate to admit they believe in flying saucers just because of that name.

782
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:41,880
I like to call them UFOs.

783
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:49,880
Possibly court, you'd like to get in and about this time. I know that you've waited for a long while to have the opportunity of talking with Major Kehoe.

784
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:51,880
Is that a call you have now, Major?

785
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:53,880
Yes. I'll be right back if you can.

786
01:01:53,880 --> 01:02:13,880
Go right ahead. I understand that there's a call that came in for Major Kehoe and we hope that it may be something that will be of interest to our listeners because if we have something that we think that we may have, I think it will be of extreme interest to all concerned.

787
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:18,880
Court, you've been a member of NYCAP for quite a period of time. Is that right?

788
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:20,880
Yes, I have, John.

789
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:35,880
And I was wondering if you could tell the listeners something about your personal opinions of NYCAP. Why it should remain in business if that's the proper phrase to use. Why it should continue to function?

790
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:48,880
Well, I think it's probably the outstanding organization, certainly in the United States and I believe in the world, for the purpose of investigating UFOs or spaceships.

791
01:02:48,880 --> 01:03:02,880
I also prefer term other than flying saucers because it is a term of ridicule, a term which certainly does not lend any commendation to the whole subject.

792
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:11,880
The whole organization, John, of NYCAP I've been familiar with, in fact considerably before Donald Kehoe became as director.

793
01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:31,880
I had known the previous director, in fact the man who organized NYCAP, but when I went to Washington to look into it and at that time, the former director had proposed that I be a director of the organization.

794
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:38,880
Upon investigation of it, it didn't seem to be set up properly to do the job that it was supposed to do.

795
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:45,880
And therefore I sent regrets regarding the honor which was offered.

796
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:51,880
And since that time I understand the situation has been clarified.

797
01:03:51,880 --> 01:04:07,880
NYCAP is on an extremely sound basis of operation, but of course NYCAP naturally needs members to carry on its work. It needs money to carry on its work.

798
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:13,880
And I feel that anything as worthwhile as this certainly is entitled to receive such.

799
01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:18,880
I think Donald Kehoe himself, John, has done a tremendous piece of work.

800
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:24,880
He and his secretary or administrator-treasurer, I believe, is her proper term now.

801
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:25,880
Mrs. Campbell?

802
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:37,880
Mrs. Campbell, yes, whom I know, have done yeoman work. They have just really been slaves at it and have put far and beyond the call of duty into NYCAP.

803
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:52,880
But they need help. They need help of those who are interested in saucers and of people who perhaps may not approve the subject or perhaps not be as familiar with it as others may be.

804
01:04:52,880 --> 01:05:00,880
But it is certainly a wonderful idea because they are trying to find the truth out about spaceships.

805
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:03,880
In other words, you don't feel that the government can accomplish this?

806
01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:16,880
Definitely. I do not feel that the government is even beginning to accomplish it, John, because this problem is in the hands, very much in the hands of the wrong agency, the Air Force.

807
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:32,880
This kind of thing should be in the hands of another department of the government, perhaps the Department of State, better yet, in a completely new agency because we are dealing with something which is not known to physical science

808
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:45,880
as to what the power is. It is not known to anybody here on earth from where they come. That is, let's put it this way, it can't be proven from where they come, except that they don't come from this planet.

809
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:50,880
May I interrupt you for just a moment, Troy? What is coming?

810
01:05:51,880 --> 01:06:03,880
In other words, you say that the Air Force, or rather you say that science has no knowledge of where they come from or what the method of propulsion is. What are you talking about?

811
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:09,880
I'm talking about the UFOs, the spaceships. We don't know what powers them. We know it's something...

812
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:13,880
But in other words, are you implying that we know that they're there?

813
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:18,880
Sure, of course. Without any question of a doubt.

814
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:35,880
If our pilots of the Air Force, our commercial pilots, if thousands of American citizens, I probably could almost say hundreds of thousands, but let's be conservative and say thousands, can be believed.

815
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:52,880
Now, granted, there are a number which are mistaken identity, perhaps even over half. But I would say that certainly a minor portion of the sightings, a major portion by the pilots, but a minor portion by the citizenry, could be termed as credible.

816
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:55,880
You feel that half of them are credible?

817
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:58,880
Of the citizenry? Or the pilots?

818
01:06:58,880 --> 01:06:59,880
Yes, of the sightings.

819
01:06:59,880 --> 01:07:10,880
Well, the pilots, John, I think the big... Oh yes, because the pilots are men who know what is in the skies. They are trained to identify other aircraft.

820
01:07:10,880 --> 01:07:21,880
And their opinions are those of men who are learned in subject of flight and ships which go through the air.

821
01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:31,880
Therefore, we could, I think, safely assume that their sightings would be very much more reliable than would the citizenry. And in many cases, they'd been closer.

822
01:07:31,880 --> 01:07:36,880
I think that Dr. Manzello sort of blew that theory high-widened hands.

823
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:43,880
When he was on the Armstrong Circle Theater, he does not discredit the pilots as pilots.

824
01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:51,880
But the fact that a man as a pilot does not mean that he is also a physicist and an astronomer and a scientist and general did.

825
01:07:51,880 --> 01:08:01,880
Now, John, and I don't think that our physicists and astronomers at this point are geared in whole round fashion to judge these either.

826
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:07,880
Because apparently, there is something beyond our three-dimensional science involved.

827
01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:09,880
However...

828
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:10,880
I'm sure.

829
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:11,880
Excuse me.

830
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:12,880
Go ahead, Cor, I'm sorry.

831
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:26,880
The pilots, however, several have seen these at rather close quarters. That is, within several hundred feet, some within a quarter mile, some within a half mile or a mile, and some at a greater distance.

832
01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:31,880
But they are obviously not other aircraft, and they move at such fantastic speeds.

833
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:41,880
And with such maneuverability, such as taking sharp right-angle turns, going at perhaps a thousand or three thousand miles an hour, or even reverse directions with no hesitancy.

834
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:43,880
And that, obviously, is something we can...

835
01:08:43,880 --> 01:08:44,880
Isn't that pretty slow?

836
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:45,880
I think I've heard reports.

837
01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:54,880
I mean, I think you've read them, too, Court, reports about UFOs being checked in some manner,

838
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:58,880
and they claim that the speed is seven thousand miles an hour.

839
01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:05,880
That is right, and I believe that Commander McLaughlin, I believe, is a Navy, had some tracking mechanism.

840
01:09:05,880 --> 01:09:20,880
I'm not familiar with the tracking mechanism, John, but at any rate, it was done for the purpose of checking the weather balloons, and they tracked a saucer somewhere around fifty thousand feet elevation, I believe, going about eighteen thousand miles an hour.

841
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:22,880
But that has been the maximum speed.

842
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:25,880
However, it's no different than our Sputnik or satellite, so...

843
01:09:25,880 --> 01:09:27,880
Mm-hmm. Charles, lead them.

844
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:34,880
Court, a couple of questions. First of all, on NICAP, I've heard this term thrown around a great deal, and I do not remember...

845
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:37,880
I can't remember exactly what it stands for.

846
01:09:37,880 --> 01:09:40,880
National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena.

847
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:43,880
Congratulations, John. I don't wonder. I have to stop it.

848
01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:44,880
I have to stop it.

849
01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:45,880
I'm not going to kill anybody.

850
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:47,880
Good man.

851
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:58,880
The second question. Earlier, you spoke about what NICAP was doing, and I think your phrase was they were trying to find out the truth about spaceships.

852
01:09:58,880 --> 01:10:05,880
Now, to me, this indicates a certain predisposition when you say to find out the truth about spaceships.

853
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:15,880
Am I perhaps wrong in thinking that you are predisposed to there being spaceships, or would you like to rephrase it and say to find out the truth about the objects?

854
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:20,880
Oh, that's all right. It really doesn't matter much. The term will use UFOs, spaceships, whatever.

855
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:29,880
Well, it matters to me a great deal, because if a man comes to me and says, I've got a project to find out the truth about spaceships,

856
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:35,880
then I say to him, well, you already convinced there are spaceships, and you just want to show it so. Isn't that true?

857
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:39,880
And if he comes and says, I want to find out the truth about objects,

858
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:47,880
then I assume that he's taking a scientific attitude and will accept reasonable proof that they don't exist.

859
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:56,880
I'm not going to push you into anything. Do you think these are spaceships and you want to prove that they are? Is that the object of NICAP?

860
01:10:56,880 --> 01:11:02,880
The object of NICAP is to investigate anything, shall we say, from space.

861
01:11:02,880 --> 01:11:06,880
So I would put that in perhaps less definite terminology than I had phrased it.

862
01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:12,880
I didn't mean to try and pin it down quite that closely, Charles. Personally, I do believe in spaceships.

863
01:11:12,880 --> 01:11:20,880
I think that the overwhelming weight of testimony is so vast that there is no question, but there is much to be learned about them,

864
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:28,880
because we actually know very, very little about them. Other than they appear to come from other than earthly origin,

865
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:38,880
in other words, are of extraterrestrial origin, that they go through our atmosphere at vast speeds, far in excess of our own aircraft speeds.

866
01:11:38,880 --> 01:11:47,880
They have maneuverability, which we cannot have and don't have. I don't say cannot have. We may have some day, but we certainly don't have it now.

867
01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:52,880
Some of these appear to be construction, some appear to have landed.

868
01:11:52,880 --> 01:11:59,880
There is one question which has bothered me about flying saucers and spaceships or whatever they are.

869
01:11:59,880 --> 01:12:08,880
The maneuverability, particularly this right-angle turn thing, which if true, if something turns the right angle at fantastic speeds,

870
01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:13,880
9, 10, 12,000 miles an hour, then they have got something there.

871
01:12:13,880 --> 01:12:19,880
But without attempting to penetrate the mind of the man who is flying this thing, the Venusian or Martian,

872
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:26,880
if he wants to get from point A to point B, why in the devil would he fly a right-angle corner? I've never been able to understand that.

873
01:12:26,880 --> 01:12:35,880
I can do it. I'm walking from here over yonder, and if I want to do a right-angle turn, I'm going slow, but ordinarily I sort of go straight there.

874
01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:45,880
Well, if they had to go from point to point, I venture to say they would probably go perhaps even a shorter distance than our own aircraft fly,

875
01:12:45,880 --> 01:12:50,880
because unless we're flying great distances, we don't go via the great circle route.

876
01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:57,880
But I don't know just why they make right-angle turns other than in some cases to avoid.

877
01:12:57,880 --> 01:13:07,880
For example, you will recall, I think, Charles hearing the story by Jay Glick, who was on this program with us some time back.

878
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:14,880
I had contacted Jay myself at the request of some others because I'd never met the gentleman.

879
01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:20,880
And when I saw that he seemed like a very sensible person, had a very interesting story to tell.

880
01:13:20,880 --> 01:13:24,880
In fact, he's an extremely interesting person in his own right.

881
01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:33,880
Long John was kind enough to invite him on the program, and Jay was on the plane, which flew to San Juan from New York.

882
01:13:33,880 --> 01:13:44,880
And just a little bit out of San Juan, this flying object, UFO, appeared to approach this plane coming at a tremendous speed,

883
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:48,880
and it looked as though it was absolutely on a collision course.

884
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:58,880
So the pilot, in order to avoid this, pulled the plane into an extremely sharp climb through everybody in the aisle and bounced people off the ceiling.

885
01:13:58,880 --> 01:14:03,880
It hurt some. In fact, I understand one of the people is still hospitalized.

886
01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:14,880
And Jay was thrown back in his seat very sharply, but it put him at such an angle that he had a better view to look out the window than he had when he was sitting upright.

887
01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:22,880
And he could see this thing, and it came directly at the plane, took a right-angle turn, and took another one, went right back.

888
01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:26,880
There was no hesitancy in any of these movements.

889
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:28,880
What do you think this proves, Carl?

890
01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:38,880
Well, it shows that it certainly was something that we don't have. It wasn't a meteor. It wasn't a fireball. It wasn't another plane. It had to be something which...

891
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:42,880
Why do you put that much confidence in Mr. Glick?

892
01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:47,880
Well, it wasn't only Mr. Glick. After all, I think again we have to look at the pilot.

893
01:14:47,880 --> 01:14:56,880
The pilot is a man of many, many thousands of hours of flying, and he has seen probably all the different aircraft there are.

894
01:14:56,880 --> 01:15:09,880
And there is nothing which indulges in that kind of maneuver. Furthermore, there were no other aircraft right close by him, although seven other aircraft did see this object.

895
01:15:09,880 --> 01:15:15,880
Well, we've talked about NICAP on this program many, many times.

896
01:15:15,880 --> 01:15:21,880
NICAP, that stands for National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena.

897
01:15:21,880 --> 01:15:27,880
Major Donnelly Kehoe, our guest this morning, is Director of NICAP.

898
01:15:27,880 --> 01:15:33,880
As an individual, I don't buy the flying saucer stories, but I don't think you're interested in my opinion.

899
01:15:34,880 --> 01:15:46,880
However, I can honestly tell you this, that I receive, I think, almost every publication that is published in the field of flying saucers.

900
01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:55,880
And some of them are really great. But I can honestly tell you that I think that the NICAP publication is just about tops.

901
01:15:55,880 --> 01:16:01,880
If you'd like to know more about it, you can write a letter or a card to NICAP.

902
01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:06,880
That's N-I-C-A-P.

903
01:16:06,880 --> 01:16:14,880
1536, Connecticut Avenue, Washington, 6 D.C.

904
01:16:14,880 --> 01:16:17,880
Now, I'll repeat that again.

905
01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:19,880
That's NICAP.

906
01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:22,880
N-I-C-A-P.

907
01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:32,880
The address, 1536, Connecticut Avenue, Washington, Zone 6 D.C.

908
01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:36,880
Now, this is not a commercial. They are not sponsors of the program.

909
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:41,880
It's only natural they cannot be sponsors because it's a non-profit organization.

910
01:16:41,880 --> 01:16:50,880
But I think that certainly the good, both of our listeners, the great majority, should certainly be interested in NICAP

911
01:16:50,880 --> 01:17:01,880
because it offers memberships and publications giving authentic UFO sightings, and I'd like to underline that word, authentic UFO sightings,

912
01:17:01,880 --> 01:17:06,880
and to update developments about unidentified flying optics.

913
01:17:07,880 --> 01:17:16,880
And if you'd like to become a NICAP associate member, it will entitle you to a year's subscription to NICAP magazine,

914
01:17:16,880 --> 01:17:24,880
the UFO investigator, and to special or confidential bulletins as issued from time to time.

915
01:17:24,880 --> 01:17:35,880
So if you'd be interested, NICAP, N-I-C-A-P, the address, 1536, Connecticut Avenue, Washington, 6 D.C., District of Columbia.

916
01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:42,880
Major Keyhole, just as we were going to talk to you again, there was a call for you, a long distance call.

917
01:17:42,880 --> 01:17:48,880
I was just wondering, is that a personal call or was it something that made me of interest to our listeners?

918
01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:53,880
Well, I think it would interest almost anyone who is interested in the flying saucer subject.

919
01:17:53,880 --> 01:17:57,880
This came from Captain Joe Hall of Capitol Airlines.

920
01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:08,880
Captain Hall is a veteran. He's been flying 18 years, 16,000 hours, most of them at the controls and airliner.

921
01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:20,880
Now, this is not a personal sighting of his, but it's one from a lieutenant in the United States Navy, and he checked on it and backs it 100%.

922
01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:30,880
Incidentally, Captain Hall himself had a sighting which was reported some months ago, a very strange one, as he was flying from New York to New Orleans.

923
01:18:30,880 --> 01:18:40,880
On this flight, he was also flying from New, no, he's flying from New Orleans to New York, and this naval pilot, and we can't give his name,

924
01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:46,880
although I have it in front of me, because you have to request the man's permission before you can name him on the air like that.

925
01:18:46,880 --> 01:18:57,880
He reported this sighting. On December 11, 1955, he and another Navy pilot were flying from Jacksonville Naval Air Station, Jacksonville, Florida.

926
01:18:57,880 --> 01:19:05,880
They were flying Cougar jets on a practice mission. It was a clear night, and they hadn't seen anything in the sky.

927
01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:15,880
Suddenly, they received an urgent message from the tower to fly directly out over the ocean, and they were vectored, that is, guided on a certain course.

928
01:19:15,880 --> 01:19:28,880
They flew several miles on this course, and they suddenly discovered in front of them an object with an orange-red glow to it, which as soon as they started to close in began to maneuver at very high speed.

929
01:19:28,880 --> 01:19:38,880
Each one of these Cougar jets was equipped with radar, and they picked up this strange UFO or flying saucer, but they couldn't get a lock on.

930
01:19:38,880 --> 01:19:53,880
That is, the radar would not lock on and guide the planes automatically, because each time they tried to close in, this strange object would either accelerate to tremendous speed, or else it would climb up to a very high altitude.

931
01:19:53,880 --> 01:20:05,880
In fact, the altitude during this chase varied from 6,000 to 30,000 feet, and the speed varied from about a slow cruising speed as they could make with a jet up to near sonic,

932
01:20:05,880 --> 01:20:10,880
which is roughly over 700 miles an hour, near sea level.

933
01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:15,880
They said during this chase, they were constantly receiving reports from the tower.

934
01:20:15,880 --> 01:20:25,880
They said by that time the tower was filled with high-ranking officers from Jacksonville Naval Air Station, and that they were being tracked by radar at Jacksonville,

935
01:20:25,880 --> 01:20:30,880
which showed the blips of the two jets and the UFOs without maneuvering them.

936
01:20:30,880 --> 01:20:40,880
They were also getting report telephone calls from people all over the area so that they had direct authentic reports from more than 100 ground witnesses.

937
01:20:40,880 --> 01:20:47,880
Now, this particular report was checked by Hall. He found out the name of the other pilot involved.

938
01:20:47,880 --> 01:20:55,880
He said there is no doubt in his mind that this was an authentic sighting, and that the pilot told him that they felt absolutely ridiculous,

939
01:20:55,880 --> 01:21:01,880
because here they were in high-speed jets, and this thing was just making monkeys out of them.

940
01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:08,880
This may not convince, may not sound as dramatic as some of the sightings that have been published,

941
01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:18,880
but if you stop and think the men involved being trained Navy pilots and the man investigating it, a veteran airline captain, I think it should make an impression.

942
01:21:18,880 --> 01:21:21,880
To me, it's a very interesting case.

943
01:21:21,880 --> 01:21:26,880
Major Kehoe, we have so many questions to ask you, and I know that I have dozens of them,

944
01:21:26,880 --> 01:21:30,880
but I think in all fairness, Charles will give you a little chance for a couple of minutes anyway.

945
01:21:30,880 --> 01:21:40,880
All right, sir. One question which has interested me, Major, and I believe you've mentioned several times that there is, to your mind,

946
01:21:40,880 --> 01:21:52,880
or at least to the mind of NICAP, a good possibility that the saucers are using, perhaps, Mars as a base of operations for observing Earth.

947
01:21:52,880 --> 01:21:54,880
Yes, I've said that.

948
01:21:54,880 --> 01:22:06,880
And I think you said that one of the things which led you to believe this was that the incidence of sightings had increased every time Mars was nearby over the past ten years.

949
01:22:06,880 --> 01:22:07,880
That's right.

950
01:22:07,880 --> 01:22:18,880
Well, the thing which makes me curious about this is if indeed these objects are interplanetary or perhaps intersystem ships,

951
01:22:18,880 --> 01:22:29,880
so they must be capable of pretty fantastic range and speed and so forth, why would they even bother with a little thing like the extra distance across the solar system

952
01:22:29,880 --> 01:22:34,880
and just wait around until Mars happened to be a little closer to come looking at us?

953
01:22:34,880 --> 01:22:41,880
Well, that's a very good question. Of course, we don't know the maximum speeds or the propulsion methods.

954
01:22:41,880 --> 01:22:45,880
It's really speculation based on sort of an educated guess.

955
01:22:45,880 --> 01:22:51,880
The first time that this increase was noted, it was just considered a coincidence. That was in 1948.

956
01:22:51,880 --> 01:23:00,880
It was another very big one in 50, very great one in 52, enough so that the Canadian government project decided at that time that they would make it official.

957
01:23:00,880 --> 01:23:03,880
It had been an unofficial deal until then.

958
01:23:03,880 --> 01:23:19,880
As far as the speeds are concerned, it may be that there are large units which do take advantage of the closeness of Mars to discharge smaller ones,

959
01:23:19,880 --> 01:23:27,880
which they leave in our area operating, orbiting, perhaps even operating from the moon.

960
01:23:27,880 --> 01:23:36,880
I don't know the answer. It's mere speculation, as I say, but it is on record, however, that there has been an increase which precedes the opposition to Mars

961
01:23:36,880 --> 01:23:40,880
and lasts anywhere from two to three months afterwards.

962
01:23:40,880 --> 01:23:51,880
On the subject of speeds, I don't know whether it was you or Cort who mentioned earlier that there had been at least one report of an object traveling at, I think, 18,000 miles an hour.

963
01:23:51,880 --> 01:23:54,880
Is that an official NICAP sighting?

964
01:23:54,880 --> 01:23:59,880
That is one of which NICAP is aware. It's an official Navy sighting which was referred to the Air Force.

965
01:23:59,880 --> 01:24:04,880
It was out of white sands. As a matter of fact, it was a Hollandman Air Force base.

966
01:24:04,880 --> 01:24:14,880
It was a theodolite tracking by trained observers who were tracking a balloon and about to track a missile, and they sighted this object.

967
01:24:14,880 --> 01:24:20,880
It was certified by everyone in the group and was considered by the Navy a very good sighting.

968
01:24:20,880 --> 01:24:25,880
The Air Force later tried to be literally observers and say they were incompetent.

969
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:36,880
One of them who made this report was Captain R.B. McLaughlin, U.S. N, who is now the commanding officer of the Naval Ordnance Laboratory at Corona, California.

970
01:24:36,880 --> 01:24:44,880
He's a guided missile expert. He says that he thinks that this thing was undoubtedly a spaceship, and he believes that they are operating from Mars.

971
01:24:44,880 --> 01:24:48,880
And he's still a high-ranking officer and is still in charge of a missile laboratory.

972
01:24:48,880 --> 01:24:51,880
You mean the Air Force didn't succeed in having him broken?

973
01:24:51,880 --> 01:24:52,880
No, they didn't.

974
01:24:52,880 --> 01:24:55,880
Well, do you mean the courts that they tried to have him broken?

975
01:24:55,880 --> 01:24:56,880
No, they ridiculed.

976
01:24:56,880 --> 01:25:00,880
They ridiculed the sighting, but they had nothing to base the ridicule on.

977
01:25:00,880 --> 01:25:11,880
Well, Major, the thing I'm not familiar with this case is that from what you said, I assume that someone who was tracking a weather balloon saw this object through the theodolite.

978
01:25:11,880 --> 01:25:12,880
That's right.

979
01:25:12,880 --> 01:25:20,880
Which, to my recollection, is a small sighting device, a tube or something with lenses in which you get an altitude and direction fix on a weather balloon.

980
01:25:20,880 --> 01:25:23,880
That's right. Usually a very good telescope, though.

981
01:25:23,880 --> 01:25:35,880
And then, according to my mathematics, this thing which was moving at five miles per second, they apparently followed that across the sky, accurately, with this small telescopic device.

982
01:25:35,880 --> 01:25:41,880
If you're a good theodolite operator, you can track quickly. They track guided missiles with those out at White Sands, too.

983
01:25:41,880 --> 01:25:45,880
Yes, but I don't think those go at five miles per second, do they?

984
01:25:45,880 --> 01:25:46,880
No, but they change.

985
01:25:46,880 --> 01:25:49,880
That's from horizon to horizon in a couple of seconds.

986
01:25:49,880 --> 01:25:57,880
This thing was not observed from horizon to horizon. It was picked up and observed until it made a very sudden sharp ascent.

987
01:25:57,880 --> 01:26:04,880
And the thing that made the reporting process was the fact that the angle of crime was also calculated.

988
01:26:04,880 --> 01:26:09,880
And the Gs involved were, I think, on the order of 36 to 38 Gs.

989
01:26:09,880 --> 01:26:11,880
Well, I should agree.

990
01:26:11,880 --> 01:26:20,880
It was accepted by the people at the base there, including commanding officers of the naval unit, and it was exciting because of the experience of the men involved.

991
01:26:20,880 --> 01:26:25,880
Charles, you said that you went from horizon to horizon in a couple of seconds.

992
01:26:25,880 --> 01:26:40,880
I don't think that this is quite what you mean because the Earth is 8,000 miles in diameter, and if this thing was going at 18,000 miles an hour, it would have taken, say, 20 minutes or so at least to make that traverse.

993
01:26:40,880 --> 01:26:49,880
Well, I think you're mistaken there, Court, because most theodolites are not able to observe from one side of the Earth to the other, at least not the ones with which I am familiar.

994
01:26:49,880 --> 01:26:59,880
The ones with which I am familiar are based on the ground and can see to the horizon, which is 0 from ground level 5 to 10 miles away.

995
01:26:59,880 --> 01:27:01,880
They cannot see around the curve of the Earth.

996
01:27:01,880 --> 01:27:03,880
That's understandable, yes.

997
01:27:03,880 --> 01:27:05,880
Well, how do you mean it took 20 minutes?

998
01:27:05,880 --> 01:27:13,880
Well, I was trying to figure the 8,000 miles divided by 18,000 miles an hour. I was making it conservative.

999
01:27:13,880 --> 01:27:16,880
You, is it your understanding that theodolite kept the subject?

1000
01:27:16,880 --> 01:27:18,880
I don't know anything about the theodolite myself.

1001
01:27:18,880 --> 01:27:33,880
And chasing your own figures, is it your understanding that the man, wherever it was with or without a theodolite, tracked this object from, shall we say, China around to Russia, which would fit in with your statistics?

1002
01:27:33,880 --> 01:27:34,880
No.

1003
01:27:34,880 --> 01:27:37,880
Well, what was the 20 minute thing you gave me?

1004
01:27:37,880 --> 01:27:56,880
Because I say I was simply dividing the diameter of the Earth, which would be some 8,000 miles, and assuming that 8,000 would be tangential to the surface of the Earth, one could see at that point in a straight line from a tangent point in either direction, which roughly we would call horizon to horizon.

1005
01:27:56,880 --> 01:27:59,880
And actually we don't see around curvature as we know.

1006
01:27:59,880 --> 01:28:05,880
So at least it would be quite a number of minutes, which this thing would be within vision.

1007
01:28:05,880 --> 01:28:18,880
Well, of course, the thing I'm trying to pin down here, because this is a very interesting sighting to me, is I take it you are given to understand that the theodolite first picked this thing up when it was 4,000 miles away.

1008
01:28:18,880 --> 01:28:21,880
I don't know. I don't, I'm not familiar.

1009
01:28:21,880 --> 01:28:22,880
I made the research about that one.

1010
01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:27,880
I think people would be more familiar with it. You have some reference on that particular sighting, Major?

1011
01:28:27,880 --> 01:28:31,880
Well, I think it is a briefing on it. I haven't, I wouldn't have all the details here.

1012
01:28:31,880 --> 01:28:43,880
It was calculated to be 56 miles above the Earth and and flying at five miles per second. That is, you correct, 18,000 miles per hour.

1013
01:28:43,880 --> 01:28:53,880
It was elliptical in shape and they computed the approximate size or length as 105 feet.

1014
01:28:53,880 --> 01:28:56,880
So I'm not very sure what the basis of that particular report.

1015
01:28:56,880 --> 01:28:58,880
If I can find the rest of it later, I'll get to you.

1016
01:28:58,880 --> 01:29:01,880
But anyway, I do remember that.

1017
01:29:01,880 --> 01:29:12,880
And the fact that McLaughlin added three other reports when he made this one public and the others were not merely one unit sighting was worth.

1018
01:29:12,880 --> 01:29:17,880
Theodolites had been tracking objects from various points in white sands and also radar had picked them up.

1019
01:29:17,880 --> 01:29:22,880
And in one case, they've been a visual and moving picture film taken at the same time.

1020
01:29:22,880 --> 01:29:39,880
Kehoe, do you think that the officials of the Air Force actually believe that there are UFOs arriving here on this planet or at least hovering over this planet that are coming here from other planets from Mars or Venus?

1021
01:29:39,880 --> 01:29:42,880
You didn't say how many. If you mean the entire Air Force...

1022
01:29:42,880 --> 01:29:46,880
No, no, no, I certainly wouldn't want you to go on record to tell us what the...

1023
01:29:46,880 --> 01:30:02,880
I would say that there is a sizeable group in the Air Force and I know that the time when I was working with them, which was back in 52 and 53, there was a very good percentage that believed it, not only believed it, but thought the public should know about it.

1024
01:30:02,880 --> 01:30:08,880
And there have been documents drawn up by Air Force intelligence officers stating their belief in that.

1025
01:30:08,880 --> 01:30:19,880
And of course the most important one was the 1948 top secret estimate, which the Air Force, for the first time tonight, came out and denied.

1026
01:30:19,880 --> 01:30:22,880
They denied because they were on the spot with that document.

1027
01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:24,880
Was that on the Mike Wallace?

1028
01:30:24,880 --> 01:30:25,880
That's right.

1029
01:30:25,880 --> 01:30:27,880
That was where the denial was made.

1030
01:30:27,880 --> 01:30:29,880
That's where the denial was made. It was given to Mike Wallace.

1031
01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:35,880
What happened was that I had tried to say that the Air Force had these documents.

1032
01:30:35,880 --> 01:30:39,880
I tried to say that on the Armstrong program, January 22nd.

1033
01:30:39,880 --> 01:30:44,880
The Air Force represented, even according to Mr. Erd Tunick, the writer for Armstrong,

1034
01:30:44,880 --> 01:30:51,880
told him that that would have to be taken out or the Air Force would immediately deny it, and even if it meant denouncing the source.

1035
01:30:51,880 --> 01:30:58,880
The source, not me, but Captain Edward RuPaul, who was formerly chief of Project RuPaul.

1036
01:30:58,880 --> 01:31:05,880
RuPaul had stated the existence of those documents in his book, which was cleared by Security and Review of the Air Force.

1037
01:31:05,880 --> 01:31:10,880
I checked on that. It was cleared December 5th, 1955.

1038
01:31:10,880 --> 01:31:13,880
They did not want that statement made.

1039
01:31:13,880 --> 01:31:16,880
Wait a minute. I'm sorry, Major. Who didn't want the statement made?

1040
01:31:16,880 --> 01:31:18,880
The Air Force did not want it made.

1041
01:31:18,880 --> 01:31:19,880
On that topic?

1042
01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:20,880
On his book. No.

1043
01:31:20,880 --> 01:31:25,880
In the RuPaul book, they tried to hold up his book, and they were told by a double day, the publisher,

1044
01:31:25,880 --> 01:31:30,880
that if they didn't get experience within a certain time, they're going to publish it anyway, so they got it.

1045
01:31:30,880 --> 01:31:35,880
But on this, they had refused to answer questions about that for a long time.

1046
01:31:35,880 --> 01:31:39,880
I had my Senator, Byrd, ask him specifically about it.

1047
01:31:39,880 --> 01:31:44,880
One of 11 questions, Major General Joe Kelly, head of the Legislative Liaison,

1048
01:31:44,880 --> 01:31:47,880
debated all the questions, including that one.

1049
01:31:47,880 --> 01:31:49,880
Nobody had ever pinned the Air Force down.

1050
01:31:49,880 --> 01:31:53,880
I had told Wallace that I had this, had proof of it,

1051
01:31:53,880 --> 01:31:55,880
and they said it was absolutely untrue.

1052
01:31:55,880 --> 01:31:59,880
I showed a portion of the script in which this was marked right out,

1053
01:31:59,880 --> 01:32:05,880
and anybody can identify that as part of the Armstrong script because it's from the same typewriter.

1054
01:32:05,880 --> 01:32:07,880
You can see it. I've got all those scripts in my...

1055
01:32:07,880 --> 01:32:09,880
Would you read that part of the script, too, as tonight?

1056
01:32:09,880 --> 01:32:10,880
Yes.

1057
01:32:10,880 --> 01:32:11,880
I'd like to hear that.

1058
01:32:11,880 --> 01:32:17,880
While you're getting that ready, sir, let me take a moment to talk about one of our sponsors, and then we'll be back with Major Keyhole.

1059
01:32:17,880 --> 01:32:26,880
Major Keyhole, before you read the statement that you were not permitted to read on the Armstrong Circle Theatre Telecast,

1060
01:32:26,880 --> 01:32:33,880
I would like to have you give me your opinion, if you will, please, on two questions.

1061
01:32:33,880 --> 01:32:41,880
Number one, why didn't Rupel appear on that program according to TV Guide he was listed?

1062
01:32:41,880 --> 01:32:42,880
Well, that's right.

1063
01:32:42,880 --> 01:32:51,880
He at first accepted the invitation. According to Mr. Tunick, the Armstrong writer, he was quite enthusiastic about it.

1064
01:32:51,880 --> 01:32:59,880
Later, he said he didn't realize he'd have to be there for rehearsals for two or three days, and that he just couldn't spare the time.

1065
01:32:59,880 --> 01:33:09,880
That may be the exact answer. It's also possible that, since he's with an aircraft company, that they decided maybe it was just as well or not anymore.

1066
01:33:09,880 --> 01:33:16,880
But they did agree to let him on the... I've got a secret program sometime before, so I assume that is the correct answer.

1067
01:33:16,880 --> 01:33:19,880
Now, the next question, sir.

1068
01:33:19,880 --> 01:33:34,880
Kenneth Arnold was in town. He was at rehearsals, I think, for two days, and he refused to appear on the program, and it was his opinion.

1069
01:33:34,880 --> 01:33:39,880
And I have the telegram in front of me a copy of it. He said in this telegram,

1070
01:33:39,880 --> 01:33:51,880
I will not be a participant on any program that obviously misrepresents and distorts the facts available on any subject broadcast for the public interest.

1071
01:33:51,880 --> 01:34:00,880
Nor would I allow any photographs or material properly copyrighted to be used on any program without written permission of the owners.

1072
01:34:00,880 --> 01:34:03,880
Do you feel that Mr. Arnold was correct in that statement?

1073
01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:13,880
Well, I talked with Arnold quite a bit. I could tell at the end of the first day that he wasn't happy about it, and the second day that he was thinking of pulling out,

1074
01:34:13,880 --> 01:34:17,880
and I happened to see him very history, and he was checking out a hotel.

1075
01:34:17,880 --> 01:34:23,880
And I told him I thought it would be better if he'd stay on, because it would look bad, you know, though he was giving in to the Air Force.

1076
01:34:23,880 --> 01:34:29,880
And he said that he felt that it was a rig program, or that may not be verbatim, which is that effect.

1077
01:34:29,880 --> 01:34:35,880
And he had wanted to state certain things, and they said there was not enough time for it.

1078
01:34:35,880 --> 01:34:43,880
I didn't overhear his discussion with the writers and producers, but I knew that he was progressively getting unhappy about it.

1079
01:34:43,880 --> 01:34:50,880
And he sent them that telegram, and they got it about four talking afternoon, and of course somebody else had to read his section.

1080
01:34:50,880 --> 01:34:58,880
Well, now before you read your statement, sir, I wonder if you can give me your opinion.

1081
01:34:58,880 --> 01:35:03,880
For the reason why did they even produce or even think of this particular show?

1082
01:35:03,880 --> 01:35:15,880
If they were going to run into so many problems, and certainly the Air Force must have informed Robert Costello and Erb Tunick that they were not going to agree with you,

1083
01:35:15,880 --> 01:35:20,880
and they were not going to let you just make any statement that you felt would be right to do.

1084
01:35:20,880 --> 01:35:26,880
Well, I can give you two or three angles on that. I don't know whether you may have seen these letters.

1085
01:35:26,880 --> 01:35:31,880
But I'll go back to the first. They told me that I was the first one that they approached.

1086
01:35:31,880 --> 01:35:35,880
Now you're referring to the arms of people.

1087
01:35:35,880 --> 01:35:43,880
Mr. Tunick called me and asked whether NICAP would cooperate putting on a program on UFOs.

1088
01:35:43,880 --> 01:35:48,880
I said, yes, we'd be glad to, as long as we were given a fair representation.

1089
01:35:48,880 --> 01:35:53,880
He said, well, we'd be glad to do that, and they asked for advice, and I gave him some ideas.

1090
01:35:53,880 --> 01:36:00,880
And I was thinking at the time that it was going to be a panel discussion, I said, be sure to get the Air Force in there.

1091
01:36:00,880 --> 01:36:04,880
He said later we're having a little trouble with the Air Force.

1092
01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:11,880
I said, well, tell them that if they don't put somebody on, you'll simply announce on the air that the Air Force was given full chance to explain each side,

1093
01:36:11,880 --> 01:36:13,880
and they refuse to have anyone on.

1094
01:36:13,880 --> 01:36:15,880
Well, we're not that good at it. I don't know.

1095
01:36:15,880 --> 01:36:20,880
But anyway, he called back, said the Air Force is now reversed itself, and everything's fine.

1096
01:36:20,880 --> 01:36:22,880
They're giving us full cooperation.

1097
01:36:22,880 --> 01:36:31,880
The first thing I knew, a script came down, showing the Air Force at all of part two, and I had five minutes of part three.

1098
01:36:31,880 --> 01:36:39,880
Rubel had three minutes, and Menzel and the Air Force had the rest of it, which meant a balance of more than three to one in time.

1099
01:36:39,880 --> 01:36:48,880
I kicked about it, and he said, well, you should have asked for equal time at the start, which was true, but I had thought it was a discussion show.

1100
01:36:48,880 --> 01:36:50,880
Did they give you any reason?

1101
01:36:50,880 --> 01:36:52,880
Is that why they didn't give you equal time?

1102
01:36:52,880 --> 01:36:55,880
Didn't they think the nightcap would be entitled equal time?

1103
01:36:55,880 --> 01:37:02,880
They said they felt that Douglas Edwards' presentation was more from Nightcap's viewpoint than the Air Force,

1104
01:37:02,880 --> 01:37:05,880
but it was really on our side and that helped balance it.

1105
01:37:05,880 --> 01:37:11,880
I do say that he did give a very fair picture of it, but it was not Nightcap's story.

1106
01:37:11,880 --> 01:37:16,880
And they said, well, we'll squeeze in a few more minutes if we can, and Rubel backed out,

1107
01:37:16,880 --> 01:37:21,880
and I got his time, and they squeezed in another minute or two.

1108
01:37:21,880 --> 01:37:24,880
I think altogether I ended up with about ten or eleven.

1109
01:37:24,880 --> 01:37:28,880
Is this including the time that you were talking about that the pots were closing?

1110
01:37:28,880 --> 01:37:31,880
I don't know. It wasn't time exactly, but something like that.

1111
01:37:31,880 --> 01:37:39,880
On Sunday before the show, I would talk to some of our Board of Governors, and they said, we don't like it.

1112
01:37:39,880 --> 01:37:45,880
That script is entirely too weak, and I agreed, and they said, well, we'll have these points, and we'll list these four documents.

1113
01:37:45,880 --> 01:37:49,880
I'm going to tell you about that should be mentioned and other things.

1114
01:37:49,880 --> 01:37:55,880
In the meantime, I had been told that the Air Force would not go on the show if there were going to be any personalities,

1115
01:37:55,880 --> 01:37:59,880
and also I was told that I could not mention the orders which muzzle pilots.

1116
01:37:59,880 --> 01:38:02,880
That's what you did mention on this program?

1117
01:38:02,880 --> 01:38:05,880
I didn't mention, I mean, you mean just now?

1118
01:38:05,880 --> 01:38:11,880
That there are orders muzzle pilots, yes, but I was told I couldn't mention that on that program.

1119
01:38:11,880 --> 01:38:13,880
In other words, I'm pretty stupid.

1120
01:38:14,880 --> 01:38:16,880
Now you're open-minded.

1121
01:38:16,880 --> 01:38:17,880
Well, they were in a spot.

1122
01:38:17,880 --> 01:38:21,880
Anyway, he said, well, do the best you can, but then I insisted on the change.

1123
01:38:21,880 --> 01:38:26,880
So I completely rewrote the script that night, and the morning I got up there, it was in typewriting.

1124
01:38:26,880 --> 01:38:32,880
I read it off in rehearsal with Doug Edwards, and it wasn't until either late that afternoon or the next day

1125
01:38:32,880 --> 01:38:36,880
that the Air Force man discovered about these four documents.

1126
01:38:36,880 --> 01:38:44,880
At that time, they, Tunik came over and said that they won't allow that to go on as is without protest,

1127
01:38:44,880 --> 01:38:48,880
and they will immediately deny it and deny the source.

1128
01:38:48,880 --> 01:38:51,880
Now, if you want me to, I'll read the statement now.

1129
01:38:51,880 --> 01:38:52,880
I said he wants you to, Major.

1130
01:38:52,880 --> 01:38:53,880
Yes.

1131
01:38:53,880 --> 01:38:57,880
All right, here is the statement which crossed out,

1132
01:38:57,880 --> 01:39:01,880
we want to read the opening part of that statement that we did here,

1133
01:39:01,880 --> 01:39:05,880
those people who saw the telecast, there may be some who missed it,

1134
01:39:05,880 --> 01:39:10,880
and then tell us when you're reading the part that they would not permit you to do.

1135
01:39:10,880 --> 01:39:13,880
All right, I don't have the preceding page, but I can remember it.

1136
01:39:13,880 --> 01:39:22,880
Edwards asked me what was the reason for the wide difference of statements between ICAP, myself, and the Air Force.

1137
01:39:22,880 --> 01:39:25,880
I mean, the Air Force said they don't exist, we said they do exist.

1138
01:39:25,880 --> 01:39:31,880
And I said there could be two reasons, one of them was an honest difference of opinion among analysts,

1139
01:39:31,880 --> 01:39:35,880
second, there is an official policy believed in the best interests of the people,

1140
01:39:35,880 --> 01:39:42,880
not to confirm the existence of UFOs until all answers are known, and then this was supposed to follow.

1141
01:39:42,880 --> 01:39:50,880
Captain Edward J. Ruble, former chief of Project Newbook, has confirmed the existence of four important Air Force documents that should be noted.

1142
01:39:51,880 --> 01:39:56,880
In 1948, in a top secret estimate, ATIC, the CERA Technical Intelligence Center,

1143
01:39:56,880 --> 01:39:59,880
concluded the UFOs were interplanetary spaceships.

1144
01:39:59,880 --> 01:40:07,880
In 1952, an Air Force intelligence analysis of UFO maneuvers brought the same conclusion, interplanetary.

1145
01:40:07,880 --> 01:40:13,880
In 1953, a report by a panel of top scientists at the Pentagon reached this conclusion.

1146
01:40:13,880 --> 01:40:18,880
There is strong circumstantial evidence, but no concrete proof that the UFOs are spaceships.

1147
01:40:18,880 --> 01:40:23,880
They recommended intensifying the investigation and telling the American people all the facts.

1148
01:40:23,880 --> 01:40:25,880
Now that is the part that was cut out.

1149
01:40:25,880 --> 01:40:27,880
You'll notice there are only three documents mentioned.

1150
01:40:27,880 --> 01:40:36,880
Just before that, apparently the safe space, a tunic or someone, had cut out the 1947 documents,

1151
01:40:36,880 --> 01:40:39,880
which said that these things were real, whatever they were.

1152
01:40:39,880 --> 01:40:42,880
Now, wasn't this on the teleprompter scene?

1153
01:40:42,880 --> 01:40:47,880
No, it was not on the teleprompter because for two days we rehearsed with scripts.

1154
01:40:48,880 --> 01:40:51,880
I think at the end of the second day they were out of the teleprompter.

1155
01:40:51,880 --> 01:40:54,880
Yes, but this never was put on the teleprompter.

1156
01:40:54,880 --> 01:41:01,880
At that time, I was faced with the alternative of either allowing it to be cut out or else not going on the air.

1157
01:41:01,880 --> 01:41:03,880
It was a state at that way.

1158
01:41:03,880 --> 01:41:07,880
It merely said that the Armstrong people couldn't have any fight of that kind.

1159
01:41:07,880 --> 01:41:13,880
I mean, I would make this statement, the Air Force would deny it and end up calling Captain Rufon the liar.

1160
01:41:13,880 --> 01:41:18,880
Well, if they had done that, I would have, of course, have produced some other evidence that I had.

1161
01:41:18,880 --> 01:41:24,880
But to avoid it, I was afraid that I'd be out of it completely and Air Force would simply have it clear

1162
01:41:24,880 --> 01:41:27,880
and it would look pretty quick as though we were afraid to talk back to the Air Force.

1163
01:41:27,880 --> 01:41:30,880
One point, Major Keyhole.

1164
01:41:30,880 --> 01:41:39,880
I saw that telecast and I imagine that you were allotted about five minutes after the Air Force represented.

1165
01:41:40,880 --> 01:41:43,880
According to my opinion, it was about five minutes that you talked.

1166
01:41:43,880 --> 01:41:49,880
Now, I was under the impression that you were reading from a teleprompter several of the statements that you made

1167
01:41:49,880 --> 01:41:52,880
that would possibly confirm the existence of the UFOs.

1168
01:41:52,880 --> 01:41:54,880
I did, that's right.

1169
01:41:54,880 --> 01:41:56,880
In other words, that was a teleprompter.

1170
01:41:56,880 --> 01:41:57,880
Yes.

1171
01:41:57,880 --> 01:42:01,880
Now, what happened when we came to that final twenty seconds?

1172
01:42:01,880 --> 01:42:04,880
Was the teleprompter blank?

1173
01:42:04,880 --> 01:42:05,880
No.

1174
01:42:05,880 --> 01:42:06,880
What had happened was this.

1175
01:42:06,880 --> 01:42:13,880
I was getting more burned out, usually, colloquialism at the fact that the Air Force had too much time

1176
01:42:13,880 --> 01:42:18,880
and that this had been cut out of the script and that the public was getting an unfair picture.

1177
01:42:18,880 --> 01:42:25,880
So I mentioned to one of the Armstrong representatives that we had been working with the Senate subcommittee

1178
01:42:25,880 --> 01:42:30,880
on UFO secrecy for about six months and they had a lot of evidence

1179
01:42:30,880 --> 01:42:34,880
and that they were considering possibility of public hearings.

1180
01:42:34,880 --> 01:42:37,880
And I said, if I put that in there, how would that be?

1181
01:42:37,880 --> 01:42:40,880
And he thought it would be terrific.

1182
01:42:40,880 --> 01:42:44,880
But I understood later that he had no authority to okay such a thing

1183
01:42:44,880 --> 01:42:48,880
and what I should have done was go on to Bob to tell all the producers.

1184
01:42:48,880 --> 01:42:50,880
I still hadn't made up my mind.

1185
01:42:50,880 --> 01:42:53,880
We went on the air, we got to a certain point and I just stuck in,

1186
01:42:53,880 --> 01:42:57,880
I started to stick in a line ad looping this about the Senate committee.

1187
01:42:57,880 --> 01:43:02,880
As soon as I got to the word Senate committee, they cut off the audio on my mic.

1188
01:43:02,880 --> 01:43:05,880
It came over, Doug Edwards, some people did hear it, thankfully.

1189
01:43:05,880 --> 01:43:07,880
Yeah, I have it on tape.

1190
01:43:07,880 --> 01:43:09,880
But that was what I was trying to say.

1191
01:43:09,880 --> 01:43:13,880
I was not going to mention this other stuff that was deleted because I promised not to.

1192
01:43:13,880 --> 01:43:20,880
I'm sorry to interrupt, Major Keyhole, but I'm going to have to take a couple of minutes to take care of some of our sponsors.

1193
01:43:20,880 --> 01:43:23,880
We're going to take a couple of minutes off for a coffee break.

1194
01:43:23,880 --> 01:43:27,880
I hope that if you know some of your friends who may be up at this time of the morning,

1195
01:43:27,880 --> 01:43:31,880
I certainly would appreciate it if you would be with Major Donnelly Keyhole.

1196
01:43:31,880 --> 01:43:37,880
That's Major Keyhole of NYCAP, N-I-C-A-P.

1197
01:43:37,880 --> 01:43:41,880
That's National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena.

1198
01:43:41,880 --> 01:43:45,880
This is an unprofit organization that he is director of.

1199
01:43:45,880 --> 01:43:48,880
It's located in Washington, D.C.

1200
01:43:48,880 --> 01:43:52,880
That's NYCAP, N-I-C-A-P.

1201
01:43:52,880 --> 01:43:57,880
And their address for our listeners who will be interested, no doubt, in contacting NYCAP.

1202
01:43:57,880 --> 01:44:01,880
The address is 1536 Connecticut Avenue.

1203
01:44:01,880 --> 01:44:09,880
That's 1536 Connecticut Avenue, Washington, D.C.

1204
01:44:09,880 --> 01:44:13,880
Now, NYCAP, as I mentioned before, is an unprofit organization.

1205
01:44:13,880 --> 01:44:20,880
This is not a commercial for them, but I certainly would like to extend Major Keyhole this courtesy into the organization.

1206
01:44:20,880 --> 01:44:26,880
I happen to be a member of it, and I think that their publication is something that everybody should have in their home

1207
01:44:26,880 --> 01:44:30,880
if you're interested in the subject of flying saucers.

1208
01:44:30,880 --> 01:44:35,880
Even if you buy them or if you don't buy them, certainly this is a very, very interesting publication.

1209
01:44:35,880 --> 01:44:40,880
And of course, when you join NYCAP, it offers you membership and publications,

1210
01:44:40,880 --> 01:44:47,880
giving you authentic UFO sightings and to update developments about unidentified flying objects.

1211
01:44:47,880 --> 01:44:54,880
And if you become a NYCAP associate member, you will be entitled to a year's subscription to NYCAP magazine,

1212
01:44:54,880 --> 01:45:01,880
the UFO investigator, and to special or confidential bulletins as issued from time to time.

1213
01:45:01,880 --> 01:45:10,880
And you can contact NYCAP at 1536 Connecticut Avenue, Washington, D.C.

1214
01:45:10,880 --> 01:45:16,880
Major Keyhole, I think you mentioned on that telecast, and of course we'd like to have the other information

1215
01:45:16,880 --> 01:45:24,880
that you were not permitted to read or mention over the Armstrong Circle Theater that particular evening.

1216
01:45:24,880 --> 01:45:28,880
But I think you mentioned something about a Senate committee.

1217
01:45:28,880 --> 01:45:32,880
Were you referring to the McClellan Committee, sir?

1218
01:45:32,880 --> 01:45:37,880
Of the McClellan Subcommittee, which is the permanent subcommittee on government operations.

1219
01:45:37,880 --> 01:45:40,880
That's the committee that you were referring to.

1220
01:45:40,880 --> 01:45:45,880
I had not given that name out before because at one time they said,

1221
01:45:45,880 --> 01:45:48,880
don't, we'd get along, we'd be swamps with mail.

1222
01:45:48,880 --> 01:45:55,880
But after the Armstrong program, somebody guessed it, and Paul Parker down Philadelphia called in and got permission to name it.

1223
01:45:55,880 --> 01:45:56,880
So he put it on the air.

1224
01:45:56,880 --> 01:45:58,880
Who did he get permission from?

1225
01:45:58,880 --> 01:46:00,880
From you or from the committee?

1226
01:46:00,880 --> 01:46:01,880
From the committee.

1227
01:46:01,880 --> 01:46:02,880
Yes.

1228
01:46:02,880 --> 01:46:03,880
The way the chief comes.

1229
01:46:03,880 --> 01:46:05,880
Are you supposed to get permission?

1230
01:46:05,880 --> 01:46:09,880
Well, no, he merely wanted to verify it, I think, the fact that there was,

1231
01:46:09,880 --> 01:46:11,880
so that he could make it authentic.

1232
01:46:11,880 --> 01:46:15,880
I mean, I had told him about the committee without naming it,

1233
01:46:15,880 --> 01:46:18,880
and he did a little guessing and called out, and the chief counsel said,

1234
01:46:18,880 --> 01:46:23,880
yes, we've been making a preliminary check before we decide on public hearings.

1235
01:46:23,880 --> 01:46:27,880
That was, of course, the thing that I tried to say when I was cut off.

1236
01:46:27,880 --> 01:46:30,880
Incidentally, you asked about the teleprompter.

1237
01:46:30,880 --> 01:46:38,880
I had two or three more paragraphs on there in which I said that I urged anyone who had information on UFOs,

1238
01:46:38,880 --> 01:46:42,880
and was withholding it, that is, good verified sightings, to send them in to us,

1239
01:46:42,880 --> 01:46:48,880
either openly or confidentially, and to, if they were interested in subject to right to us,

1240
01:46:48,880 --> 01:46:53,880
and we had our address in there, everything, which you've been so kind to mention here.

1241
01:46:53,880 --> 01:46:58,880
As soon as I started living this, the teleprompter began to rack up and down so fast,

1242
01:46:58,880 --> 01:47:03,880
I couldn't read it, so I knew by then that I was in disfavor somewhere.

1243
01:47:03,880 --> 01:47:09,880
But I finished as quickly as I could from memory, and they had left me on camera.

1244
01:47:09,880 --> 01:47:14,880
At that time, they switched to Doug Edwards, but here's something I'd like to make clear.

1245
01:47:14,880 --> 01:47:20,880
I want everyone to know that I never blamed Armstrong or CBS.

1246
01:47:20,880 --> 01:47:30,880
The writer, Tunik, and the producer, Bob Costello, were the nicest guys I have ever encountered on a TV program like that,

1247
01:47:30,880 --> 01:47:36,880
and, well, anywhere on any network. And they did try hard to offset the lack of time.

1248
01:47:36,880 --> 01:47:40,880
I felt particularly bad because Costello was so worried about the effect.

1249
01:47:40,880 --> 01:47:44,880
And I stuck around there for an hour and a half to talk with the industry people,

1250
01:47:44,880 --> 01:47:49,880
to call it up in spite of the fact several people said, I went away and left everybody in the dark

1251
01:47:49,880 --> 01:47:55,880
about what I was going to say. But here is a statement that CBS...

1252
01:47:55,880 --> 01:48:02,880
If I may interrupt you for just a moment, Major, also in talking about Robert Costello and Herb Tunik,

1253
01:48:02,880 --> 01:48:09,880
I think it was about three o'clock in the morning, the following morning, I talked with Mr. Tunik.

1254
01:48:09,880 --> 01:48:16,880
He was trying and trying to get me on the phone, and our switchboard was pretty well tied up that morning

1255
01:48:16,880 --> 01:48:22,880
because, naturally, a number of people had saw the telecast, thought that maybe we would have some knowledge of what you tried to say.

1256
01:48:22,880 --> 01:48:31,880
So Mr. Tunik sent me a wire, and then I had him on the beeper phone, and he told us what had happened down there,

1257
01:48:31,880 --> 01:48:39,880
and he was extremely complimentary about you, sir. And he said that you were very cooperative, and he appreciated it.

1258
01:48:39,880 --> 01:48:40,880
Well, I appreciate it.

1259
01:48:40,880 --> 01:48:41,880
He made it right on the...

1260
01:48:41,880 --> 01:48:47,880
I hated it, I hated it because they both been so friendly, and they did not.

1261
01:48:47,880 --> 01:48:50,880
I don't think either one of them liked this, but this is about the censorship.

1262
01:48:50,880 --> 01:48:55,880
And also, so that's okay, and I'd excited the statement to that effect.

1263
01:48:55,880 --> 01:49:00,880
However, I didn't mention the censorship that happened before then because I thought, well, if I do that,

1264
01:49:00,880 --> 01:49:06,880
it will look as though I did this for that reason, that I did it in order to get that thing in the newspapers.

1265
01:49:06,880 --> 01:49:11,880
So I purposely kept quiet about the censorship that the Air Force had caused during the time.

1266
01:49:11,880 --> 01:49:16,880
It would have been a wonderful time to spring it and show that piece of paper from the script,

1267
01:49:16,880 --> 01:49:21,880
but I didn't, I just waited because I didn't want to hurt Costello and Tunik anymore.

1268
01:49:21,880 --> 01:49:25,880
I thought they might be playing for having something, some knowledge of it.

1269
01:49:25,880 --> 01:49:31,880
But here is a line that PBS had in a letter, a form under the sender, everybody, about the program,

1270
01:49:31,880 --> 01:49:36,880
said, this program had been carefully cleared for security reasons.

1271
01:49:36,880 --> 01:49:43,880
Therefore, it was the responsibility of this network to ensure performance in accordance with predetermined security standards.

1272
01:49:43,880 --> 01:49:52,880
Now, I would like to know why if the flying saucers don't exist, if they absolutely are no menace of any kind,

1273
01:49:52,880 --> 01:49:56,880
and they couldn't be, and they simply are something in the project of imagination of their errors,

1274
01:49:56,880 --> 01:50:00,880
why there is security about it, and why the program had to be cleared at all.

1275
01:50:00,880 --> 01:50:04,880
Why was it that they were so worried that I might say something?

1276
01:50:04,880 --> 01:50:11,880
And also, I bet you to say this, if the Air Force Colonel had started to add a statement in there,

1277
01:50:11,880 --> 01:50:14,880
I wonder whether they would have pulled a switch on him.

1278
01:50:14,880 --> 01:50:16,880
I can't answer the question.

1279
01:50:16,880 --> 01:50:21,880
I'd like a good bet, about 50 to one, that they wouldn't have.

1280
01:50:21,880 --> 01:50:23,880
You're a betting man, Cardi.

1281
01:50:23,880 --> 01:50:27,880
If you want to get around to it later, I know I've talked quite a little bit here,

1282
01:50:27,880 --> 01:50:31,880
there are some other items that were in the original manuscript set up there.

1283
01:50:31,880 --> 01:50:35,880
Well, no, I would appreciate it very much if you'd like to comment on them right now, sir.

1284
01:50:35,880 --> 01:50:39,880
Oh, I thought the listeners would actually be very interested in the invention.

1285
01:50:39,880 --> 01:50:44,880
I don't say that this was censorship, because it could actually, unless they'd given me even time,

1286
01:50:44,880 --> 01:50:46,880
they couldn't have covered all this.

1287
01:50:46,880 --> 01:50:51,880
I was hoping that they would actually be forced into giving me equal time with the Air Force, which didn't happen.

1288
01:50:51,880 --> 01:50:57,880
Well, one of the cases in Indianapolis where practically half the city saw an object in 1952,

1289
01:50:57,880 --> 01:51:01,880
and a statement by Captain Richard Case, who was flying an American Airlines Convair,

1290
01:51:01,880 --> 01:51:06,880
and said that this was a controlled craft of some sort, and he was perfectly convinced.

1291
01:51:06,880 --> 01:51:10,880
Then I had a military case by Marine Corps Captain Don Holland,

1292
01:51:10,880 --> 01:51:16,880
and the fact that his sighting was confirmed by Major General William G. Manley, USMC,

1293
01:51:16,880 --> 01:51:21,880
who said he did sight it, and that it was an authentic sighting.

1294
01:51:21,880 --> 01:51:28,880
Then I mentioned the fact that many Air Force pilots are among the 100 to claim the UFOs are real.

1295
01:51:28,880 --> 01:51:35,880
And I had in here the Far East Air Force Report of an encounter in December 1956.

1296
01:51:35,880 --> 01:51:39,880
Incidentally, that was described in our magazine, the UFO Investigator.

1297
01:51:39,880 --> 01:51:46,880
There's an Air Force jet pilot caught this on his radar, and the blip showed it to be as large as a larger than a B-29 bomber.

1298
01:51:46,880 --> 01:51:50,880
And he locked on with his radar and tried to close in.

1299
01:51:50,880 --> 01:51:59,880
He saw this thing ahead of him, a strange round object, and this was later computed to be at least 200 and 250,

1300
01:51:59,880 --> 01:52:01,880
and for up to 300 feet in diameter.

1301
01:52:01,880 --> 01:52:06,880
He closed it within five miles, and during that time he had a mysterious radar interference from the object.

1302
01:52:06,880 --> 01:52:11,880
He kept switching frequencies, and after a few seconds the interference would come back.

1303
01:52:11,880 --> 01:52:17,880
When he got to within five miles, this object accelerated to between 1500 and 1800 knots,

1304
01:52:17,880 --> 01:52:23,880
that's roughly around 2,000 miles an hour, and went out of sight so quickly that it just vanished.

1305
01:52:23,880 --> 01:52:28,880
That was cut out. I was argued against using that one because you can't use the pilot's name.

1306
01:52:28,880 --> 01:52:32,880
Well, the Air Force will not release the names of witnesses in any case.

1307
01:52:32,880 --> 01:52:37,880
I think it was a good one. I think the reason it was cut out because it would have put the Air Force on the spot.

1308
01:52:37,880 --> 01:52:42,880
I also mentioned back to Center Barry Goldwater, an Air Force reserve colonel,

1309
01:52:42,880 --> 01:52:48,880
and said that he frankly feels he's a great deal to this, and he'd often discussed it with Air Force officers.

1310
01:52:48,880 --> 01:52:58,880
Then I mentioned the documents, which I've already gone over, and the Mantell case, what stayed in?

1311
01:52:58,880 --> 01:53:04,880
The Mantell case. I mentioned that also in 1948 the pilot of an Air Force T-6 had had a weird dogfight

1312
01:53:04,880 --> 01:53:09,880
with a strange UFO over Andrew's Air Force base in Maryland.

1313
01:53:09,880 --> 01:53:14,880
After trying to close in for ten minutes, he switched on his landing lights,

1314
01:53:14,880 --> 01:53:18,880
and he saw this strange object make a tight turn and head toward the east coast.

1315
01:53:18,880 --> 01:53:23,880
Now, the Air Force experts in the Air Weather Service checked on this and reported,

1316
01:53:23,880 --> 01:53:28,880
in a secret report which was later declassified. This was definitely not a balloon.

1317
01:53:28,880 --> 01:53:34,880
In spite of that, the Air Force came out and released a public statement that this man had been dogfighting with a balloon.

1318
01:53:34,880 --> 01:53:38,880
Now, that's another thing that was not on the air.

1319
01:53:38,880 --> 01:53:44,880
Most of the other has to do with sightings, or there was one other thing, a special report 14.

1320
01:53:44,880 --> 01:53:52,880
That's the Air Force Blue Book report in which they say that they analyzed 3,201 cases,

1321
01:53:52,880 --> 01:53:59,880
and in the back of this it shows a table that 19.5% were unexplained.

1322
01:53:59,880 --> 01:54:06,880
In other words, to add on the ones that they had to explain on up to date, it makes a total of more than 700.

1323
01:54:06,880 --> 01:54:11,880
They admit 5,700, so 700 out of 5,700 or more than 12% are unexplained.

1324
01:54:11,880 --> 01:54:17,880
The Air Force admits that, but they come out and say, we are currently explaining 1.9%.

1325
01:54:17,880 --> 01:54:23,880
The word currently gets dropped out and everybody thinks the Air Force has explained about all but 2% of the sightings.

1326
01:54:23,880 --> 01:54:27,880
I had that in there and part of it was left in.

1327
01:54:27,880 --> 01:54:35,880
The one other thing that I wanted to mention was the fact that the Air Force said that they could not build a working model of a flying saucer

1328
01:54:35,880 --> 01:54:44,880
because they had 12 cases out of all these, what they call the cream of the crop, and all of them were describing different objects.

1329
01:54:44,880 --> 01:54:53,880
This inspired the fact that in 1949 Project Grudge report was released temporarily and later was classified.

1330
01:54:53,880 --> 01:54:56,880
They said that there were several groups.

1331
01:54:56,880 --> 01:55:07,880
Group 1, the most numerous, described a disc-shaped object, apparently metallic, which had a diameter 10 times the thickness of it

1332
01:55:07,880 --> 01:55:11,880
because these things were capable of swift accelerations and high-speed turns.

1333
01:55:11,880 --> 01:55:17,880
Group 2, the most numerous object seen at night and Group 3, the cigar-shaped object.

1334
01:55:17,880 --> 01:55:21,880
You certainly can make working models out of a disc or a cigar-shaped object.

1335
01:55:21,880 --> 01:55:27,880
Here is Special Report 14, which was apparently led out to deceive the American people.

1336
01:55:27,880 --> 01:55:35,880
This was denounced shortly afterwards by Captain Rupel, the former head of the project, who said that he was responsible for having this thing drawn up.

1337
01:55:35,880 --> 01:55:43,880
And when it came in, everybody agreed it was practically worthless and it's still being put over as the official document of the Air Force.

1338
01:55:43,880 --> 01:55:52,880
Major, there's a question on these documents. These four top secret documents seem to keep coming in and out of all the conversations on this.

1339
01:55:52,880 --> 01:55:59,880
Now, to my understanding, you knew the contents of these documents through Captain Rupel.

1340
01:55:59,880 --> 01:56:02,880
Is that correct?

1341
01:56:02,880 --> 01:56:12,880
The Air Force denied that three of these things ever existed and stated that the fourth document did exist,

1342
01:56:12,880 --> 01:56:16,880
but that its contents were pretty diametrically opposite to what you claim.

1343
01:56:16,880 --> 01:56:27,880
In fact, they claim, I think it was a statement of Secretary Horner, that in fact the contents of this document were that the public should be widely informed true,

1344
01:56:27,880 --> 01:56:37,880
but they should be widely informed that there was no evidence to support the hypothesis that there were flying saucers or spaceships or what have you.

1345
01:56:37,880 --> 01:56:49,880
Now, earlier you said that on the Armstrong Circle Theater they did not want to get into this because the Air Force would deny the existence of them and would in fact be calling Captain Rupel a liar.

1346
01:56:49,880 --> 01:56:54,880
Now, can I assume that the Air Force has now called Captain Rupel a liar?

1347
01:56:54,880 --> 01:56:57,880
It would appear to me that they had, yes.

1348
01:56:57,880 --> 01:57:05,880
And that raises quite a number of points because he's not the only one who confirmed the existence of these documents.

1349
01:57:05,880 --> 01:57:11,880
I learned of the existence of two of them a long time before his book came out.

1350
01:57:11,880 --> 01:57:14,880
Now, there's a very funny thing about the one they do admit.

1351
01:57:14,880 --> 01:57:17,880
This was not an Air Force document solely.

1352
01:57:17,880 --> 01:57:27,880
It was originally an investigation or rather an examination of evidence by scientists called together by the Central Intelligence Agency.

1353
01:57:27,880 --> 01:57:32,880
They ran the show with the Air Force producing the evidence they had.

1354
01:57:32,880 --> 01:57:41,880
These top level scientists and aviation leaders, astronomers and so on, were called in to advise the Air Force what to do.

1355
01:57:42,880 --> 01:57:50,880
Now, the one recommendation in there which is very important is that they said you should quadruple the size of the project and set up special observation posts.

1356
01:57:50,880 --> 01:57:54,880
Now, that's one thing that people in the project have been fighting for.

1357
01:57:54,880 --> 01:58:06,880
Rupel mentions in there that Major General William Garland, who was then out at ATIC, came to the Pentagon and fought for this and was finally turned down.

1358
01:58:06,880 --> 01:58:11,880
He wanted it carried through, the thing called Rupel and the observation posts and so forth.

1359
01:58:11,880 --> 01:58:23,880
It'd be very easy to call Garland and Colonel Don, Frank Don and others, Rupel mentions in there and it's interesting to notice that nobody mentioned by Rupel in that book has ever come out and said that's a lie.

1360
01:58:23,880 --> 01:58:28,880
It copies of that book, went to every officer in there who's mentioned in it.

1361
01:58:28,880 --> 01:58:34,880
There's no question that those things exist, but the Mintley Air Force admits it, then they are on the spot.

1362
01:58:34,880 --> 01:58:55,880
Well, the such, then finally having denied it, finally denied it, seems that it is no longer a case of perhaps concealing things from the public, but it is, and now pretty much a flat case of somebody, either Captain Rupel and the other gentlemen, or the official representatives of the Air Force are just plain lying.

1363
01:58:55,880 --> 01:58:59,880
Well, I don't like to use the word lying, here's what I would like to say there.

1364
01:58:59,880 --> 01:59:05,880
There are people who think that it is wiser not to let the American people know any bad news.

1365
01:59:05,880 --> 01:59:09,880
That's been prevalent and it's more and more prevalent in Washington today.

1366
01:59:09,880 --> 01:59:13,880
Big Brother will decide what is best for the American people and I think it's wrong.

1367
01:59:13,880 --> 01:59:24,880
Now when I say I, I'm speaking for most of the people on our board of governors and you could say, as Wallace started out saying, well everybody's connected to this seems to be a crackpot

1368
01:59:24,880 --> 01:59:25,880
or something else.

1369
01:59:25,880 --> 01:59:29,880
Now we have Vice Admiral R. H. Hillen Carter, as I mentioned.

1370
01:59:29,880 --> 01:59:32,880
He was formerly head of the CIA.

1371
01:59:32,880 --> 01:59:34,880
He had a wonderful war record.

1372
01:59:34,880 --> 01:59:37,880
Real Admiral Herbert Knowles will also find war record.

1373
01:59:37,880 --> 01:59:43,880
Colonel Robert Emerson, USAR, who occasionally goes on active duty for the Army today, investigated this for years.

1374
01:59:43,880 --> 01:59:50,880
J.B. Hartrants, who's president of the Aircraft Owners and Powers Association, the largest organization in the world of pilot pilots.

1375
01:59:51,880 --> 01:59:57,880
Major Farnay, who was on the project, and the number one man in Washington, the number one investigator.

1376
01:59:57,880 --> 01:59:59,880
Quite a number of people.

1377
01:59:59,880 --> 02:00:04,880
Well, Frank Edwards, you just mentioned him, identified him a while ago, and some religious leaders,

1378
02:00:04,880 --> 02:00:06,880
Professor Mania Defiance University.

1379
02:00:06,880 --> 02:00:13,880
And we have a number of other people who will not let their names be used, but who are special advisors in various fields.

1380
02:00:13,880 --> 02:00:15,880
Some of them top rocket missile men.

1381
02:00:15,880 --> 02:00:23,880
These people, most of them, will agree that the Air Force is keeping the facts from the public.

1382
02:00:23,880 --> 02:00:24,880
May I ask you this, Major Kehoe?

1383
02:00:24,880 --> 02:00:26,880
You've given us a list of names here.

1384
02:00:26,880 --> 02:00:32,880
Would you go on record here this morning and make the statement that all of these people,

1385
02:00:32,880 --> 02:00:41,880
whose names you have just listed to us, would you say that they all believe that these UFOs are interplanetary?

1386
02:00:41,880 --> 02:00:44,880
No, I won't say that because there's a variation in there.

1387
02:00:44,880 --> 02:00:51,880
And I do hope to have a statement on that out within the next week or two.

1388
02:00:51,880 --> 02:00:57,880
At least there will be a statement by a majority of the board on this question of censorship.

1389
02:00:57,880 --> 02:01:05,880
Some of the board members, and I think it goes up to more than 50%, believe that these things are interplanetary.

1390
02:01:05,880 --> 02:01:09,880
I'm not going to identify them until each one has given me permission.

1391
02:01:10,880 --> 02:01:13,880
Some of them are absolutely convinced of it.

1392
02:01:13,880 --> 02:01:16,880
Some of them say it looks like it, and they're almost convinced.

1393
02:01:16,880 --> 02:01:18,880
And others say I'd still like to see some more evidence.

1394
02:01:18,880 --> 02:01:22,880
One quick question, and then I'll have to take care of them.

1395
02:01:22,880 --> 02:01:23,880
This is Major.

1396
02:01:23,880 --> 02:01:31,880
Are you representing NICAP this morning, or are you talking as Major Donald E. Kehoe?

1397
02:01:31,880 --> 02:01:37,880
I'm representing NICAP, and anytime you want my personal views aside, it's a little hard to split myself apart.

1398
02:01:37,880 --> 02:01:45,880
But what I have said up to now is as a director of NICAP.

1399
02:01:45,880 --> 02:01:56,880
My guests this morning, Major Donald E. Kehoe of NICAP, director of NICAP, Cortland Heistings, Charles Liedem.

1400
02:01:56,880 --> 02:01:59,880
I don't know for a moment there if something happened, Charles, just a blank.

1401
02:01:59,880 --> 02:02:03,880
I'm looking at you and I'm not quite sure if you were a Venusian.

1402
02:02:03,880 --> 02:02:05,880
Renzan, you're wrong.

1403
02:02:05,880 --> 02:02:11,880
And Jules B. St. Germain, the attorney and author from Lindbrook, Long Island.

1404
02:02:11,880 --> 02:02:16,880
I think just at the time that I interrupted to take care of a little business here,

1405
02:02:16,880 --> 02:02:26,880
you were telling us, you were giving us some additional information about what occurred on that telecast,

1406
02:02:26,880 --> 02:02:33,880
and also you were giving us a statement in reference to whether you were representing NICAP this morning,

1407
02:02:33,880 --> 02:02:36,880
or representing just Donald E. Kehoe.

1408
02:02:36,880 --> 02:02:44,880
I have one brief question to ask you, sir, and then there's no doubt my other panel members around here have a number of questions too.

1409
02:02:44,880 --> 02:02:50,880
Well, I hope you realize that you'll have plenty of time to give us some of that exciting information.

1410
02:02:50,880 --> 02:02:52,880
Charles, did you want to pick up something here?

1411
02:02:52,880 --> 02:03:02,880
Yes, one small point, Major. I noticed that earlier on television and just now you've said you've offered these gentlemen the presumed contactees

1412
02:03:02,880 --> 02:03:06,880
the opportunity to come to Washington or perhaps someone will go there.

1413
02:03:06,880 --> 02:03:08,880
I don't know how it would work.

1414
02:03:08,880 --> 02:03:10,880
And take a lie detector test.

1415
02:03:10,880 --> 02:03:16,880
And if I were a, if I had a story about contacting Venusians

1416
02:03:16,880 --> 02:03:25,880
and were told in effect that I would, my story would stand or fall on the result of a lie detector test,

1417
02:03:25,880 --> 02:03:32,880
I think I would quite justifiably turn it down too because as you know well, these are not exactly reliable instruments.

1418
02:03:32,880 --> 02:03:36,880
They are not admitted as court evidence, I don't believe. Is that true, Drew?

1419
02:03:36,880 --> 02:03:44,880
Generally speaking, they're not admitted as court evidence. Of course, the question of reliability, you'll get various opinions.

1420
02:03:44,880 --> 02:03:54,880
But as long as there are at least a few expert opinions on non-reliability, I would hate to have my whole story fall on the fact that something went wrong with the polygraph when I happened to be tied to it.

1421
02:03:54,880 --> 02:04:05,880
Well, if I understand the major correctly, I believe this was merely an incident of one of various tests that be applied and appearing before a panel. Is that right, sir?

1422
02:04:05,880 --> 02:04:13,880
That's right. It was a question that was suggested as one of the eight. In fact, they had originally about 20, and it just kept to be too long.

1423
02:04:13,880 --> 02:04:18,880
They cut it down. Now, we printed the replies that we got.

1424
02:04:18,880 --> 02:04:19,880
Well, what happened?

1425
02:04:19,880 --> 02:04:33,880
Well, the point is this. We had stated that whenever an ICAP was able to have these hearings, it's going to be an expensive proposition to transport somebody from the West Coast and to put them up there for whatever time it takes for these hearings.

1426
02:04:33,880 --> 02:04:40,880
And I also have always said that I felt the investigation of factual sightings should come first.

1427
02:04:40,880 --> 02:04:44,880
This is W.O.R. Radio, your station in New York 710 in the Dile.

1428
02:04:44,880 --> 02:04:49,880
Major Kehoe, don't you think, though, that that's a rather unfortunate situation?

1429
02:04:49,880 --> 02:05:08,880
In other words, let us say as an example that I, one night, come in front of this microphone and I say that I was driving down the Jersey Tertent Pike and I saw a light in the sky and something landed near the side of the highway and it was a Venusian spaceship.

1430
02:05:08,880 --> 02:05:15,880
And I took a ride in it. Of course, I do this show and there would be some people who would believe me and many people wouldn't believe me, the same as any of the others.

1431
02:05:15,880 --> 02:05:21,880
So immediately you hear about it and you send me one of these forms to fill out.

1432
02:05:21,880 --> 02:05:27,880
And I fill it out and I agree. Yes, by all means, Major Kehoe, bring the lie detector test up.

1433
02:05:28,880 --> 02:05:38,880
Of course, you've possibly sent this form maybe to 40 or 50 people and I am one of three people who've agreed to submit to the lie detector.

1434
02:05:38,880 --> 02:05:53,880
The outcome of it is you don't have this available at the present time. Wouldn't you say that this would sort of imply that I am honest and that I'm telling a legitimate story because I'm willing to submit to it?

1435
02:05:53,880 --> 02:06:02,880
I wouldn't say that implies that 100% because there are a lot of people that will agree to anything because they are convinced of what they are saying.

1436
02:06:02,880 --> 02:06:11,880
You know that sometimes a man can be so convinced of the truth after he said it enough times that he might even be able to pass the lie detector test.

1437
02:06:11,880 --> 02:06:14,880
I've been told that. I think that's possible.

1438
02:06:14,880 --> 02:06:27,880
The whole thing was unfortunate. I did not want to go into this contact business so soon because I felt that your first job is to convince the American people and the press that these things are real.

1439
02:06:27,880 --> 02:06:30,880
After that, the other things in the right order.

1440
02:06:30,880 --> 02:06:38,880
Well, don't you think that's the easiest way? And believe me, I'm not being critical of you, sir, or NICAP. I'm not in the position to be and I don't think it's my right to be.

1441
02:06:39,880 --> 02:06:48,880
But you sit here, Major Kehoe, and you tell us about these sightings and they're extremely interesting.

1442
02:06:48,880 --> 02:07:01,880
And of course, you have no tangible proof to afford us this morning except the fact that this pilot and that pilot and this Air Force General has made the statement.

1443
02:07:01,880 --> 02:07:14,880
I think that's a lot of things that are fine and dandy. But don't you think it would prove more to the American public that there is something to this story if it could be proven that these fellas who claim that they've been talking to venusians and Martians,

1444
02:07:14,880 --> 02:07:18,880
if it could be proven that they're telling the truth. I don't buy it myself, frankly, Major.

1445
02:07:18,880 --> 02:07:23,880
It would be easier to sell me the idea that this is something that has to be.

1446
02:07:23,880 --> 02:07:28,880
I'll try to answer that before I do. I want to make one little correction in there about not having anything tangible.

1447
02:07:28,880 --> 02:07:43,880
There are photographs and there are photographs of radar scopes showing triangulation of objects and there are pieces of metal which have fallen from objects which have disintegrated and which were reported as UFOs just before they did.

1448
02:07:43,880 --> 02:07:56,880
So I would say there is some tangible evidence. Now, to go into this other, I know quite a number of better newspaper men and a number of newscasters in Washington.

1449
02:07:56,880 --> 02:08:05,880
I said, what is your opinion? What's the best policy for NICAP after I was put in there and inherited it and sometimes wish I'd never been born.

1450
02:08:05,880 --> 02:08:18,880
But anyway, I said, no matter what you personally believe, it is smarter to concentrate on your factual sightings because the minute you start in on any other angle, you're going to lose the press.

1451
02:08:18,880 --> 02:08:31,880
Then you will start being ridiculed as having accepted contact stories, whether you accept them or not, the minute you start sounding as all you do, you said, the best advice we can give you is not even to mention them.

1452
02:08:31,880 --> 02:08:37,880
Don't say yes or no, just keep still. So I tried that at first. It didn't work.

1453
02:08:37,880 --> 02:08:47,880
The pressure built up because there are many people who are sincerely convinced that these things are true and some people who accept all of them and some people who accept a few.

1454
02:08:48,880 --> 02:08:57,880
The pressure got so great that I was accused of clamping a lid. Here I am, I got trying to expose censorship and I'm clamping a lid on the contact stories.

1455
02:08:57,880 --> 02:09:08,880
So I said, all right. So I got advice from a lot of people about a policy and we set out these questions and we did not send to a lot of people because we selected the best known ones.

1456
02:09:09,880 --> 02:09:18,880
There are by now, I think, hundreds who claim contact or communication here and abroad. So it didn't satisfy anybody.

1457
02:09:18,880 --> 02:09:24,880
There are people that don't believe in them, they wrote in and said, what are you bothering with those for? What's the idea?

1458
02:09:24,880 --> 02:09:33,880
And we thought Nikef was a factual organization. The people who believe in the contacts wrote in and said, here you are trying to force people to take a lie detector test.

1459
02:09:33,880 --> 02:09:45,880
The result is, it's no better than it was. I will say this. I have tried very hard and tonight perhaps is the first time that I have said anything that sounded a little hard-boiled.

1460
02:09:45,880 --> 02:09:57,880
I've tried very hard to say we are going to be impartial. If anybody can bring in absolute proof that will convince not me, but the advisors and the board that will be out and writing with a Nikef banner on it.

1461
02:09:58,880 --> 02:09:59,880
Charles?

1462
02:10:00,880 --> 02:10:08,880
Major, on the business of the contact stories, I think the advice of the newspaper men that you consulted was probably good.

1463
02:10:08,880 --> 02:10:18,880
And I bring up my own case very briefly to lead up to the question I want to ask you is that years ago when the books and sightings first started coming out,

1464
02:10:18,880 --> 02:10:24,880
I bought quite a few of them and read them and had, shall we say, an open mind on it. I don't know if I really did.

1465
02:10:24,880 --> 02:10:32,880
But I started to get off the boat very quickly when I read stories about glowing venusians with long hair, leaving hieroglyphics in the sand,

1466
02:10:32,880 --> 02:10:40,880
and a few other, rather, shall we say, curious incidents. And I figured, well, if the flying saucer people are like this, well, who needs them?

1467
02:10:40,880 --> 02:10:49,880
Now, which leads up to the question is, I wonder if perhaps you as the director of Nikef, or perhaps just as Donald Keyhoe, a private citizen,

1468
02:10:49,880 --> 02:10:54,880
feel that the contact stories are damaging your case?

1469
02:10:57,880 --> 02:11:08,880
I think they are delaying acceptance of UFO reality by most people in the United States. And I said that in a statement of policy, and I think our second issue.

1470
02:11:09,880 --> 02:11:17,880
I said, no matter what you believe, why don't you take it easy, and let's prove that these sightings are correct.

1471
02:11:17,880 --> 02:11:24,880
Take the most factual ones you can get, and once the newspapers buy it and the networks buy it, the individual broadcasters,

1472
02:11:24,880 --> 02:11:31,880
nothing can stop investigation of every phase, everything, the communication claims, the contact claims.

1473
02:11:31,880 --> 02:11:38,880
Every angle of it will immediately be explored, because then it will be the biggest story they've got, and they'll jump on it,

1474
02:11:38,880 --> 02:11:45,880
you'll have thousands of people writing and talking about it from then on. So let's get the facts in there.

1475
02:11:45,880 --> 02:11:52,880
And that's the one thing the Air Force is worried about. They love the contact stories, because it helps them to laugh at all.

1476
02:11:52,880 --> 02:12:00,880
Now, there may be somewhere or other, there may be a guy with a contact story that is absolutely 100% true, and he's being crucified.

1477
02:12:00,880 --> 02:12:09,880
I will admit that in my books, particularly the second one, I took some cracks, and I treated the subject very lightly,

1478
02:12:09,880 --> 02:12:18,880
and if I were to write another one now, I don't know what I would do. I probably would state the nightcap policy and keep my own opinion out of it.

1479
02:12:18,880 --> 02:12:23,880
What I wanted to get in here, as a matter of fact, I hear the resonant voice of Jules coming in.

1480
02:12:23,880 --> 02:12:31,880
The squeaky voice of Jules is that this is an introduction to you, by the way, Jules.

1481
02:12:31,880 --> 02:12:32,880
Thank you very much.

1482
02:12:32,880 --> 02:12:40,880
I don't know whether you would call CSI, or I'm sure you wouldn't call it a rival organization, let's say a fellow organization in the field,

1483
02:12:41,880 --> 02:12:51,880
civilian, saucer, intelligence, and as we are on this subject, it is my understanding that CSI, either as a body or a large number of its individual members,

1484
02:12:51,880 --> 02:12:58,880
believe in what we have, I think, incorrectly called little green men and been corrected to little men.

1485
02:12:58,880 --> 02:12:59,880
That's right, not little green.

1486
02:12:59,880 --> 02:13:02,880
And here sitting on my right is the president.

1487
02:13:02,880 --> 02:13:03,880
The little man?

1488
02:13:03,880 --> 02:13:10,880
Oh, have Jules say to your man who, are you as a representative of CSI tonight, Jules, or just as a member of CSI?

1489
02:13:10,880 --> 02:13:15,880
Individually as a 230 pound little man. He's tightly packed.

1490
02:13:16,880 --> 02:13:25,880
Jules, I wonder if you could recap briefly for some of the listeners who may have joined us for the first time.

1491
02:13:25,880 --> 02:13:37,880
The statement that you made a couple of weeks ago on this program about the opinions of two of the gentlemen who had the research department of CSI,

1492
02:13:37,880 --> 02:13:41,880
I think that's Mr. Ted Blocher and Mr. Alex Meben.

1493
02:13:41,880 --> 02:13:45,880
I think you told us something about not little green men, but about little men.

1494
02:13:45,880 --> 02:13:48,880
Well, I hate to quote someone else.

1495
02:13:49,880 --> 02:13:57,880
I think there has been a differentiation by CSI in the contact claims.

1496
02:13:57,880 --> 02:14:10,880
Putting one in the class of the fair-haired or long-haired venusians or Martians with the metaphysical and the religious and occult significance

1497
02:14:11,880 --> 02:14:19,880
and the stories of the generally non-communicative little men who are more of the humanoid variety.

1498
02:14:19,880 --> 02:14:28,880
And although I don't think that either class is endorsed, I think it is the position of CSI generally speaking,

1499
02:14:28,880 --> 02:14:32,880
or possibly the majority of the members, my phraseology may be poor,

1500
02:14:33,880 --> 02:14:44,880
that of the two classes there is more likelihood of truth in those stories which embrace the humanoid group which we call the little men.

1501
02:14:44,880 --> 02:14:48,880
Now, I hope I'm quoting the general position correctly.

1502
02:14:48,880 --> 02:14:51,880
If that is my personal opinion on any event.

1503
02:14:51,880 --> 02:14:55,880
Charles, any further question or comment?

1504
02:14:55,880 --> 02:14:59,880
No. The one line of thought here which has occurred to me,

1505
02:14:59,880 --> 02:15:06,880
and I am certainly doing this at either CSI or NICAP or just by anybody else in the flying saucer field,

1506
02:15:06,880 --> 02:15:15,880
is that there are a lot of statements quoted about scientist's speculation on the fact that other worlds are inhabited.

1507
02:15:15,880 --> 02:15:22,880
And statistically it seems to be a fair chance that a good many of other worlds throughout the universe are inhabited.

1508
02:15:23,880 --> 02:15:30,880
And CSI and NICAP and the various flying saucer people say that there are such things as flying saucers

1509
02:15:30,880 --> 02:15:39,880
that very possibly they come from some unspecified or perhaps more than one unspecified other world far away in the universe.

1510
02:15:39,880 --> 02:15:49,880
And also there are statements about top secret documents which may or may not exist, we don't know, we have conflicting testimony on that.

1511
02:15:49,880 --> 02:15:57,880
But all of these things, it seems to me that the people who claim it are on the long end of the stick here,

1512
02:15:57,880 --> 02:16:05,880
is that nobody, it's an easy thing to maintain and I don't know if this is necessarily any condemnation of it,

1513
02:16:05,880 --> 02:16:10,880
but it is unfortunate that those of us who are on the other side of the fence who do not believe in saucers

1514
02:16:10,880 --> 02:16:16,880
or little men or contacts or anything else are not going to be able to have a final word on this thing

1515
02:16:16,880 --> 02:16:24,880
until that great golden day when the Earth spaceships have explored each and every last sun in the universe.

1516
02:16:24,880 --> 02:16:33,880
So we're on the short end of it and they're on the long end of it and it's perhaps just providentially very fortunate for them.

1517
02:16:33,880 --> 02:16:35,880
And I don't know where, whatever we're going to do.

1518
02:16:35,880 --> 02:16:41,880
The thing, the question that all this is leading around to all of this circuitism, and it is circuitous,

1519
02:16:41,880 --> 02:16:49,880
is that in these presumably open-minded and scientific investigations of saucers and contacts and little men,

1520
02:16:49,880 --> 02:16:57,880
if there is anything that would prove, I assume that their minds are open one way or the other, maybe there are, maybe there aren't,

1521
02:16:57,880 --> 02:17:04,880
if there was anything that would prove to the representatives of these organizations that in fact there were no such things as flying saucers.

1522
02:17:04,880 --> 02:17:14,880
Before we visited the last sun in the universe and said nobody home, I leave that wide open, anybody can come in that wants to.

1523
02:17:14,880 --> 02:17:19,880
Well, I mean, I understand what you're saying, child, I don't quite understand your point.

1524
02:17:19,880 --> 02:17:27,880
Well, my point is this, the civilian saucer intelligence and NICAP represent themselves, and I'm sure they are,

1525
02:17:27,880 --> 02:17:36,880
as open-minded scientific groups wanting to investigate this thing right down to the last rivet of unidentifiable metal falling from the sky.

1526
02:17:36,880 --> 02:17:42,880
But they only seem to be investigating it in a positive sense. They want to prove that it is so.

1527
02:17:42,880 --> 02:17:48,880
And most of the things which I consider as scientific investigations as an open-ended thing both ways,

1528
02:17:48,880 --> 02:17:55,880
we make a hypothesis and we say, well, maybe this is so and maybe it isn't, we are now going to find out.

1529
02:17:55,880 --> 02:18:01,880
And there are certain criteria. We will apply certain tests to something that we are testing.

1530
02:18:01,880 --> 02:18:09,880
If this test works out this way, then the hypothesis is wrong. If the test works out the other way, the hypothesis is right.

1531
02:18:09,880 --> 02:18:17,880
Now, of course, the obvious way of proving that your hypothesis is right is the little man or perhaps the long-haired man walking into the studio or something

1532
02:18:17,880 --> 02:18:26,880
and saying, hi, kids, I'm from Venus, and proving it. Is there anything which would convince any of you people that there were no such things as flying saucers?

1533
02:18:26,880 --> 02:18:37,880
Well, I might say, first of all, it seems to me that you are presupposing a blind acceptance upon the part of NICAP and CSI of all UFO stories.

1534
02:18:37,880 --> 02:18:45,880
In that respect, I think you are wrong. Now, just what Major Kehoe said in reference to the policy on the contact claims,

1535
02:18:45,880 --> 02:18:51,880
that would seem to me a highly objective approach. They're not accepting it. They're asking for proof.

1536
02:18:51,880 --> 02:18:59,880
They're asking if the party is willing to undergo a lie detector test. So, certainly, I think that would contradict you.

1537
02:18:59,880 --> 02:19:07,880
To get to the question, of course, of tangible evidence, I think that's a term that can be open to various interpretations.

1538
02:19:07,880 --> 02:19:16,880
To make a parallel example, it certainly is an exaggerated one. I've seen the top of the Empire State Building, but I've never touched it.

1539
02:19:16,880 --> 02:19:24,880
Does that mean that it is possibly a fantasy? Of course, I realize that's exaggerated. It's not strictly comparable.

1540
02:19:24,880 --> 02:19:37,880
What intangible evidence, when you see definite and solid blips on radar, to me that would certainly approach, if not actually being, tangible evidence.

1541
02:19:37,880 --> 02:19:39,880
Of what?

1542
02:19:39,880 --> 02:19:52,880
Of some object in the sky, the radioscope indicates a speed in excess of that, which can be accomplished by any aircraft known to us here.

1543
02:19:52,880 --> 02:20:00,880
That would indicate that it is something of an unusual origin. Then the next question, of course, is what is it?

1544
02:20:00,880 --> 02:20:14,880
Basically, there are three classes. One, spaceships, number two, the secret weapon, and three, a little advanced theory that is some type of life form in the air.

1545
02:20:14,880 --> 02:20:17,880
Do you know of any other classes, Major?

1546
02:20:17,880 --> 02:20:25,880
There is no, except the Air Force answer is that the radar men are always wrong, or something is wrong with the set.

1547
02:20:25,880 --> 02:20:39,880
But you have to rule that out when you take the hundreds of radar reports and realize that the men who make them are the ones who either GCI, Ground Control Intercept in the Air Force,

1548
02:20:39,880 --> 02:20:51,880
and are trained to guide fighters in very closely to enemy bombers, or they are cyber aeronautics experts, including the men who can bring you in right down to the runway,

1549
02:20:51,880 --> 02:20:59,880
and you don't see anything almost until you're there, and they can say you're five feet to the left, over down five, up four.

1550
02:20:59,880 --> 02:21:12,880
I mean, they spot you instantly. If those men aren't able to recognize the difference between a solid object coming in under control and a bird or a temperature inversion or something like that,

1551
02:21:12,880 --> 02:21:19,880
they'd be cracking up planes all over runways, and you wouldn't be having airliners flying in under those ceilings in the airports.

1552
02:21:19,880 --> 02:21:28,880
Now, those radar men are good, and they very, very much resent the Air Force statements that radar doesn't prove anything.

1553
02:21:28,880 --> 02:21:37,880
They've even got Air Force radar now, 3,000 miles, is supposed to pick up an enemy missile, and they're wondering, they just say, oh, that's great.

1554
02:21:37,880 --> 02:21:40,880
It's so good, why isn't the other any good?

1555
02:21:40,880 --> 02:21:51,880
One brief question, Major Kehoe. You have made the statement a couple of times this morning that you feel that the government is acting as sort of a big brother.

1556
02:21:51,880 --> 02:21:59,880
They're going to tell us the things that they think that we can stand to hear and the things that we shouldn't hear, they're not going to tell us about.

1557
02:21:59,880 --> 02:22:09,880
Now, in other words, what you've implied is that they possibly know as much as you do, maybe even a little bit more about these things that are flying around,

1558
02:22:09,880 --> 02:22:14,880
and possibly they know that they're coming from other planets. You've sort of implied this anyway.

1559
02:22:14,880 --> 02:22:24,880
Now, my question is just this. Is it possible, sir, that maybe some foreign government, I'm talking about a government on this planet,

1560
02:22:24,880 --> 02:22:34,880
that maybe they've developed something that acts like youthfuls, and maybe our government is familiar with the fact that it may be something that was built by Russia,

1561
02:22:34,880 --> 02:22:41,880
and that they don't want to tell us that because they're afraid that it may cause too much concern?

1562
02:22:41,880 --> 02:22:50,880
Well, that, of course, was the first answer that the Air Force and the Navy and the Army considered back in 47 when they had the mass sightings.

1563
02:22:50,880 --> 02:22:56,880
There were a lot of scared people running around the Pentagon when these things finally seemed to be real.

1564
02:22:56,880 --> 02:23:02,880
And then they began to take some stock and said, well, either the Soviet had a terrific leap here,

1565
02:23:02,880 --> 02:23:09,880
and less than two years since they ended World War II and their devastated factories and practically nothing,

1566
02:23:09,880 --> 02:23:15,880
and all of a sudden they've got a perfect global weapon, or else these are coming from somewhere else.

1567
02:23:15,880 --> 02:23:23,880
So they did a hasty intelligence job. The end of six months with the help of the British, they had ruled out any possibility these could be Russian.

1568
02:23:23,880 --> 02:23:31,880
But now, just to say for a minute that they were Russian, it would mean that since 1940, actually since the middle of World War II,

1569
02:23:31,880 --> 02:23:35,880
the Russians had something in operation, or maybe it was the Germans and the Russians took it over.

1570
02:23:35,880 --> 02:23:44,880
And then they perfected it by 47. For 11 years, they've been building ordinary jets and working like mad to build missiles and get sputniks in the air

1571
02:23:44,880 --> 02:23:48,880
when they already had the ultimate perfect device and weapon.

1572
02:23:48,880 --> 02:23:54,880
They were letting us fight them when all they had to do was to take one of these things and say,

1573
02:23:54,880 --> 02:23:59,880
we are going to have it over the center of Wichita, Kansas tomorrow, and everybody better get out of there,

1574
02:23:59,880 --> 02:24:06,880
because when we have it over there, we're going to drop something and they could prove it without any doubt, and they would have owned the world by now.

1575
02:24:06,880 --> 02:24:14,880
I don't think there's any possibility of a Soviet answer, and the US secret weapon answer rules out the same way,

1576
02:24:14,880 --> 02:24:22,880
because we wouldn't be so afraid, we would certainly not have failed to put sputniks in the air, and we would not be building ordinary jets and missiles.

1577
02:24:23,880 --> 02:24:25,880
Cortland Hastings?

1578
02:24:25,880 --> 02:24:32,880
This problem of these constructions coming from other countries here.

1579
02:24:32,880 --> 02:24:39,880
Jessup brought out the point in a letter to open letter to Arthur Constance in the Flying Saucer Review.

1580
02:24:39,880 --> 02:24:41,880
In 1882...

1581
02:24:41,880 --> 02:24:43,880
Pardon me, who's Arthur Constance?

1582
02:24:43,880 --> 02:24:48,880
He's quite an English scientist who wrote the Inexplicable Universe.

1583
02:24:48,880 --> 02:24:49,880
He's a what, sir?

1584
02:24:49,880 --> 02:24:50,880
A scientist.

1585
02:24:50,880 --> 02:24:51,880
A scientist.

1586
02:24:51,880 --> 02:24:52,880
Yes.

1587
02:24:52,880 --> 02:24:57,880
Is that the gentleman who... I think I... is that the book published by Citadel Press?

1588
02:24:57,880 --> 02:24:59,880
I don't believe so, but I don't know.

1589
02:24:59,880 --> 02:25:06,880
Is this the gentleman who claims that he feels that Adamsky has legitimate pictures?

1590
02:25:06,880 --> 02:25:07,880
No.

1591
02:25:07,880 --> 02:25:08,880
No, I'm sorry.

1592
02:25:08,880 --> 02:25:09,880
No.

1593
02:25:09,880 --> 02:25:10,880
Continue.

1594
02:25:10,880 --> 02:25:17,880
But at any rate, there was a very great structure seen in the air, a UFO, in 1882.

1595
02:25:17,880 --> 02:25:25,880
So this is long before any airships, and this was tested to by at least three prominent astronomers at the time.

1596
02:25:25,880 --> 02:25:31,880
And your friend Jay Glick, as a matter of fact, going way, way back into history...

1597
02:25:31,880 --> 02:25:35,880
Jay is quite an Egyptologist.

1598
02:25:35,880 --> 02:25:43,880
He stated that there were numerous references in the Egyptian Book of the Dead to spaceships as machines from space.

1599
02:25:43,880 --> 02:25:48,880
So these things have been around here for so long that it isn't anything recent, except...

1600
02:25:48,880 --> 02:25:58,880
Well, if I may use the same reasoning that Major Kehoe just used in reference to the possibility of Russia having developed something back in 1947,

1601
02:25:58,880 --> 02:26:04,880
and by now they would have dropped the bomb at Wichita, Kansas,

1602
02:26:04,880 --> 02:26:14,880
Why are the Martians or the Venetians flying around with these things for the last thousand, two thousand years, or four hundred years?

1603
02:26:14,880 --> 02:26:18,880
Why haven't they done something instead of continuing to fly around?

1604
02:26:18,880 --> 02:26:21,880
By now, don't they know enough about this planet?

1605
02:26:21,880 --> 02:26:25,880
Well, it might be that they're simply keeping us under observation.

1606
02:26:25,880 --> 02:26:26,880
For what purpose?

1607
02:26:26,880 --> 02:26:29,880
Simply to see where we're reacting.

1608
02:26:29,880 --> 02:26:36,880
Simply as possibly older people might watch some kindergarten children reacting.

1609
02:26:36,880 --> 02:26:38,880
I don't know why they're here, John.

1610
02:26:38,880 --> 02:26:40,880
I have any more ideas than you or John.

1611
02:26:40,880 --> 02:26:42,880
You can say you don't know why they are here.

1612
02:26:42,880 --> 02:26:44,880
In other words, you've implied that they are here.

1613
02:26:44,880 --> 02:26:45,880
Is that right, Court?

1614
02:26:45,880 --> 02:26:47,880
Well, I feel very sure that they're here.

1615
02:26:47,880 --> 02:26:49,880
I don't think there's any question about it.

1616
02:26:49,880 --> 02:26:50,880
Who are they?

1617
02:26:50,880 --> 02:26:57,880
People that UFOs intelligently controlled have been seen by the thousands,

1618
02:26:57,880 --> 02:27:02,880
probably tens of thousands in our atmosphere, by credible witnesses.

1619
02:27:02,880 --> 02:27:09,880
I think they're always in these discussions, I don't mean just here, but discussions everywhere, about UFOs.

1620
02:27:09,880 --> 02:27:14,880
People seem to get away from the fact, or not want to accept the fact,

1621
02:27:14,880 --> 02:27:22,880
that pilots and very fine sound citizens have seen these in such vast number

1622
02:27:22,880 --> 02:27:25,880
that there's no longer question as to whether they are.

1623
02:27:25,880 --> 02:27:29,880
The question is to what they are and from where they come.

1624
02:27:29,880 --> 02:27:30,880
I see.

1625
02:27:30,880 --> 02:27:33,880
In other words, then what you're saying, Court, is that you don't know what they are

1626
02:27:33,880 --> 02:27:36,880
or where they're coming from, and you really don't...

1627
02:27:36,880 --> 02:27:41,880
In other words, do you actually feel that there's a possibility that some of these things have landed on this planet?

1628
02:27:41,880 --> 02:27:44,880
Yes, because they've been seen to have been landed.

1629
02:27:44,880 --> 02:27:55,880
In this last issue of the UFO investigator put out by NICAP, there were several instances where the UFO was on the ground or hovering.

1630
02:27:55,880 --> 02:27:59,880
Well, if you want to say landed, where one was touching.

1631
02:27:59,880 --> 02:28:01,880
The fact that it was down a level and touching.

1632
02:28:01,880 --> 02:28:05,880
The UFO investigator, that's the NICAP official publication.

1633
02:28:05,880 --> 02:28:10,880
Does this mean that NICAP have sort of given that deciding their seal of approval

1634
02:28:10,880 --> 02:28:14,880
or just that they have recorded it in their publication?

1635
02:28:14,880 --> 02:28:18,880
Well, I'd say that in this case they probably gave it a seal of approval

1636
02:28:18,880 --> 02:28:21,880
because they sent down one of their representatives of the board.

1637
02:28:21,880 --> 02:28:23,880
Major Keyhole, which I believe...

1638
02:28:23,880 --> 02:28:24,880
Care to comment on that?

1639
02:28:24,880 --> 02:28:29,880
I don't think that we have anything in here saying there was an actual landing.

1640
02:28:29,880 --> 02:28:36,880
We have the case of the Army MPs who said this thing came down very close.

1641
02:28:36,880 --> 02:28:39,880
Now, let me see.

1642
02:28:39,880 --> 02:28:46,880
The one in Texas was not reported to have touched down.

1643
02:28:46,880 --> 02:28:48,880
It was supposed to have come very close to it.

1644
02:28:48,880 --> 02:28:49,880
Is that the level in Texas?

1645
02:28:49,880 --> 02:28:51,880
Yes, the level in Texas.

1646
02:28:52,880 --> 02:29:00,880
This Corporal Roy says it stayed there three minutes giving off a reddish-orange light

1647
02:29:00,880 --> 02:29:04,880
and it came to the ground fairly fast, looked like a completely controlled landing.

1648
02:29:04,880 --> 02:29:07,880
Well, that's what you're probably referring to.

1649
02:29:07,880 --> 02:29:08,880
That's right.

1650
02:29:08,880 --> 02:29:12,880
Now, we quoted...that was a story we got straight from the press wires

1651
02:29:12,880 --> 02:29:16,880
and we tried to check with the Air Force and they said they had nothing to say about it.

1652
02:29:16,880 --> 02:29:22,880
There was another MP story in the same general area of White Sands.

1653
02:29:22,880 --> 02:29:25,880
It was hovering 50 feet from the ground.

1654
02:29:25,880 --> 02:29:33,880
This one later was explained by the Air Force that two of these MPs had seen the moon

1655
02:29:33,880 --> 02:29:37,880
and mistaken the moon for something hovering and landing touching the ground

1656
02:29:37,880 --> 02:29:39,880
and the others had seen the planet Venus.

1657
02:29:39,880 --> 02:29:40,880
Those explanations have given out.

1658
02:29:40,880 --> 02:29:43,880
I don't believe either of those explanations are correct.

1659
02:29:43,880 --> 02:29:50,880
Now, whether these men actually saw the thing touch or hover in that one case, I don't know.

1660
02:29:50,880 --> 02:29:56,880
Ordinarily, when people talk about landings, it's usually hooked up with the idea of

1661
02:29:56,880 --> 02:29:59,880
they see people come in and out of them.

1662
02:29:59,880 --> 02:30:03,880
Now, I think there probably have been some touchdown landings

1663
02:30:03,880 --> 02:30:06,880
where they touched down very briefly and went off again

1664
02:30:06,880 --> 02:30:12,880
because there have been ready cases where the ground seemed to be radioactive for...unusually so.

1665
02:30:12,880 --> 02:30:16,880
There was something using that type of propulsion had been there.

1666
02:30:16,880 --> 02:30:20,880
That doesn't hook up with any contact stories, however.

1667
02:30:20,880 --> 02:30:24,880
In level land, as I recall, and that's the Cindy,

1668
02:30:24,880 --> 02:30:30,880
it wasn't their one case reported of a UFO being in the middle of a road

1669
02:30:30,880 --> 02:30:35,880
and the driver of a car having stopped, got out and then it took off.

1670
02:30:35,880 --> 02:30:37,880
There had been some landings in case there.

1671
02:30:37,880 --> 02:30:42,880
In the level-in case, no. In the level-in case, it was said that it came low over them.

1672
02:30:42,880 --> 02:30:48,880
And the altitude was variously guessed up to...well, I'm not looking at it this moment,

1673
02:30:48,880 --> 02:30:51,880
but I recall around 200 feet with the lowest altitude that I read.

1674
02:30:51,880 --> 02:30:56,880
Now, the Alamogordo case was nowhere nearly that close to the ground.

1675
02:30:56,880 --> 02:31:00,880
It wasn't their one where I believe a truck driver from Waco, Texas,

1676
02:31:00,880 --> 02:31:06,880
had actually stopped his motor vehicle and there was a egg-shaped object on the road in front of him.

1677
02:31:06,880 --> 02:31:08,880
I had that impression.

1678
02:31:08,880 --> 02:31:11,880
That was down in Mississippi or Alabama or somewhere,

1679
02:31:11,880 --> 02:31:15,880
and that's when we described occupants that came out and talked with him.

1680
02:31:15,880 --> 02:31:18,880
It wasn't the one I had in mind, Major. I made the entirely wrong leg.

1681
02:31:18,880 --> 02:31:27,880
Not true. In the Saucers magazine, in regard to this level-in Texas major,

1682
02:31:27,880 --> 02:31:30,880
I will quote here because it's only a few lines,

1683
02:31:30,880 --> 02:31:37,880
that Pedro Saucedo, a farmhand in Joe Salas, were driving toward a farm at Pettit, Texas.

1684
02:31:37,880 --> 02:31:42,880
Saucedo suddenly spotted an object rise from a field and come toward us.

1685
02:31:42,880 --> 02:31:46,880
Then his truck motor died and the headlights dimmed out.

1686
02:31:46,880 --> 02:31:49,880
Pedro Saucedo jumped out of his truck.

1687
02:31:49,880 --> 02:31:51,880
He said,

1688
02:31:51,880 --> 02:31:55,880
The thing passed directly over my truck with a great sound and a rush of wind.

1689
02:31:55,880 --> 02:31:58,880
It sounded like thunder and my truck rocked from the blast.

1690
02:31:58,880 --> 02:32:00,880
I felt a lot of heat.

1691
02:32:00,880 --> 02:32:04,880
The enigmatic craft was torpedo-shaped.

1692
02:32:04,880 --> 02:32:07,880
Well, that was, in essence, the report there.

1693
02:32:07,880 --> 02:32:13,880
As a matter of fact, I think, in one of the earlier Air Force cases,

1694
02:32:13,880 --> 02:32:18,880
the case of a musician by the name of Squires, I believe, in Kansas,

1695
02:32:18,880 --> 02:32:22,880
which was, I believe, dubbed reliable by the Air Force.

1696
02:32:22,880 --> 02:32:26,880
I think this man described an object on the ground

1697
02:32:26,880 --> 02:32:28,880
and he thought he sighted someone through a portal.

1698
02:32:28,880 --> 02:32:32,880
I thought it was hovering a very close distance from the ground.

1699
02:32:32,880 --> 02:32:35,880
I think you are right there, but it seemed to be hovering very close.

1700
02:32:35,880 --> 02:32:39,880
Maybe, well, that was, it was about dawn or just before dawn.

1701
02:32:39,880 --> 02:32:45,880
And I talked with one of the officers on the project about that.

1702
02:32:45,880 --> 02:32:48,880
Now, maybe he was wrong. He gave me the wrong impression,

1703
02:32:48,880 --> 02:32:52,880
but he said that it was hovering very close to the ground.

1704
02:32:52,880 --> 02:32:57,880
Some time ago, Major, I had some correspondence with Mr. Reinhold Schmidt

1705
02:32:57,880 --> 02:33:04,880
in Caught in Nebraska, and I received a six-page letter in answer to a letter I had sent him.

1706
02:33:04,880 --> 02:33:08,880
And I do have the impression, now, I may be entirely wrong,

1707
02:33:08,880 --> 02:33:13,880
that Nightcap had sent him a letter or a questionnaire, had contacted him.

1708
02:33:13,880 --> 02:33:14,880
Do you have any recollection of it?

1709
02:33:14,880 --> 02:33:15,880
No, we did not send him.

1710
02:33:15,880 --> 02:33:16,880
You did not?

1711
02:33:16,880 --> 02:33:21,880
No. In fact, I think there was some confusion there

1712
02:33:21,880 --> 02:33:24,880
between the man in Washington named Wayne Aho,

1713
02:33:24,880 --> 02:33:29,880
because I received a call from a radio station or newspaper out there

1714
02:33:29,880 --> 02:33:33,880
wanting to know what we had asked Mr. Schmidt, and I said,

1715
02:33:33,880 --> 02:33:34,880
we had not asked him anything.

1716
02:33:34,880 --> 02:33:39,880
And he said, well, he said that the head of this Washington Saucer Group had asked him.

1717
02:33:39,880 --> 02:33:43,880
I said, well, it chances are it's Aho. Sometimes the names are confused.

1718
02:33:43,880 --> 02:33:47,880
I assume there is no relationship between Mr. Aho and yourself.

1719
02:33:47,880 --> 02:33:51,880
No, he spells his name A-H-O.

1720
02:33:51,880 --> 02:33:56,880
There's two A-Hos. There's Major Wayne Aho and there's Arthur Aho.

1721
02:33:56,880 --> 02:34:00,880
That's the brother who's associated with George Van Tassel, Arthur Aho.

1722
02:34:00,880 --> 02:34:01,880
That's right. I remember there was one.

1723
02:34:01,880 --> 02:34:08,880
I might add, by the way, I did also communicate with the prosecutor's attorney in Caught in Nebraska,

1724
02:34:08,880 --> 02:34:14,880
who has the unusual name of Goatabed, G-O-T-O-B-E-D.

1725
02:34:14,880 --> 02:34:17,880
Unfortunately, I don't have the letter with me,

1726
02:34:17,880 --> 02:34:24,880
but I was interested primarily in the claim of mistreatment, so to speak, of Schmidt.

1727
02:34:24,880 --> 02:34:28,880
I don't have the letter with me, but the idea, basically, as he expressed it,

1728
02:34:28,880 --> 02:34:30,880
was to save Schmidt from himself.

1729
02:34:30,880 --> 02:34:33,880
He thought he might have suicidal tendencies.

1730
02:34:33,880 --> 02:34:38,880
Jules, I'm sorry that I have to interrupt, but in fact, I'll tell you what,

1731
02:34:38,880 --> 02:34:42,880
you might get up and go out to the kitchen with some of the other boys.

1732
02:34:42,880 --> 02:34:46,880
I know Tommy Reynolds is anxious to get out there and prepare a little coffee.

1733
02:34:46,880 --> 02:34:49,880
In the meantime, I'd like to talk to some of the listeners about

1734
02:34:49,880 --> 02:34:53,880
Major Donnelly Kehoe, director of NICAP.

1735
02:34:53,880 --> 02:34:57,880
That's National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena.

1736
02:34:57,880 --> 02:35:03,880
Cortland Hastings, Charles Liedem, and Jules B. St. Germain.

1737
02:35:03,880 --> 02:35:07,880
Now, I know that we all have a lot of questions and we want a lot of answers,

1738
02:35:07,880 --> 02:35:12,880
so if we can get brief questions, maybe we'll get a lot of answers from Major Kehoe.

1739
02:35:12,880 --> 02:35:13,880
Charles?

1740
02:35:13,880 --> 02:35:16,880
Well, this one is a double question, actually, and I...

1741
02:35:16,880 --> 02:35:17,880
I mean, a two for one.

1742
02:35:17,880 --> 02:35:18,880
Two for one. All right.

1743
02:35:18,880 --> 02:35:19,880
All for one price.

1744
02:35:19,880 --> 02:35:22,880
And it's both a Major Kehoe and a court.

1745
02:35:22,880 --> 02:35:29,880
I don't know what the NICAP attitude is towards these, or I shouldn't call them prehistory,

1746
02:35:29,880 --> 02:35:33,880
these early sightings, the Egyptian sightings, and who knows, Babylonian sightings,

1747
02:35:33,880 --> 02:35:35,880
and so forth, the flying saucers.

1748
02:35:35,880 --> 02:35:42,880
This is the second time I've heard Cort mention the Book of the Dead of Egypt and its sightings

1749
02:35:42,880 --> 02:35:44,880
of saucers from outer space.

1750
02:35:44,880 --> 02:35:51,880
And the thing that the first part of my bargain question here is, I don't know when it was,

1751
02:35:51,880 --> 02:35:57,880
in the 1700s, sometimes the 1600s, there was a well-documented case in London of hundreds

1752
02:35:57,880 --> 02:36:02,880
and perhaps thousands of people seeing flights of angels over the sea.

1753
02:36:02,880 --> 02:36:09,880
And there have been throughout the ages wonderfully documented many thousands of sightings of trolls

1754
02:36:09,880 --> 02:36:12,880
and gnomes and elves and cobalds and so forth.

1755
02:36:12,880 --> 02:36:18,880
And there's a mythical beast, I can't remember, which was seen in central Europe by thousands

1756
02:36:18,880 --> 02:36:22,880
of people, which had the, I think, the head of a chicken and the body of a snake.

1757
02:36:22,880 --> 02:36:27,880
I can't think of the name of it now, but if it looked at you or you looked at it, you turned a stone.

1758
02:36:27,880 --> 02:36:33,880
There were a great many sightings of this, and speaking of sightings by competent people,

1759
02:36:33,880 --> 02:36:41,880
the observers of the sea, sailors, captains, people whose entire lives had been spent watching the sea

1760
02:36:41,880 --> 02:36:47,880
and objects therein, and were certainly as competent as anyone else saw sea serpents,

1761
02:36:47,880 --> 02:36:51,880
and who knows, maybe there are sea serpents, but they also saw a lot of mermaids.

1762
02:36:51,880 --> 02:36:55,880
And I think we're fairly well convinced now that there are no mermaids.

1763
02:36:55,880 --> 02:37:02,880
Now the thing I want to know, first is why court or the nightcap or whoever it happens to be,

1764
02:37:02,880 --> 02:37:07,880
selects out of this great mass of curious stuff the sightings of objects in the sky,

1765
02:37:07,880 --> 02:37:15,880
which is supposed to be from outer space, and throws them at us as being from the Book of the Dead Court?

1766
02:37:15,880 --> 02:37:19,880
I'm very glad to answer that.

1767
02:37:19,880 --> 02:37:21,880
I'm glad you can.

1768
02:37:21,880 --> 02:37:24,880
I'll answer it, best I can.

1769
02:37:24,880 --> 02:37:28,880
The Book of the Dead is instruction, actually, for people on this earth.

1770
02:37:28,880 --> 02:37:34,880
It isn't instruction, as the name would indicate, for people after death.

1771
02:37:34,880 --> 02:37:44,880
In the Olden Times, antiquity, in the Times of Antiquity, the term dead then meant life on this earth,

1772
02:37:44,880 --> 02:37:52,880
and that the human soul is much more alive in the unseen than it is here on this earth.

1773
02:37:52,880 --> 02:37:58,880
The reference definitely was to machines from space.

1774
02:37:58,880 --> 02:38:06,880
It was not to be confused with the sun, because these things were referred to as machines, although having brilliant light.

1775
02:38:06,880 --> 02:38:10,880
See, there have been many explanations that these were suns they were referring to.

1776
02:38:10,880 --> 02:38:13,880
Well, they had brilliant light, but they were machine suns.

1777
02:38:13,880 --> 02:38:19,880
In other words, if they were constructions, they were entities.

1778
02:38:19,880 --> 02:38:26,880
I don't mean entities in a sense of people, but were things which were coming to their earth.

1779
02:38:26,880 --> 02:38:31,880
And there were many references, too, to occupants of these machines from space.

1780
02:38:31,880 --> 02:38:34,880
It wasn't just a machine alone.

1781
02:38:34,880 --> 02:38:41,880
So I think we've got to look at that in as broad a fashion as we can, with as open mind as we can.

1782
02:38:41,880 --> 02:38:44,880
Now, your reference to these other sightings, Charles,

1783
02:38:45,880 --> 02:38:50,880
is where people saw peculiar monsters and all that.

1784
02:38:50,880 --> 02:38:54,880
We know that superstition naturally does play a large part.

1785
02:38:54,880 --> 02:39:04,880
On the other hand, for example, if we come up to a little more modern time, say in around 1880, I believe it was,

1786
02:39:04,880 --> 02:39:10,880
somewhere in that neighborhood in Kansas, there was a UFO which hovered over a city, I believe it was Kansas,

1787
02:39:10,880 --> 02:39:12,880
for about three days.

1788
02:39:12,880 --> 02:39:14,880
There was a picture in a newspaper.

1789
02:39:14,880 --> 02:39:19,880
After all, there are thousands of people, in fact, all the inhabitants of the city saw this.

1790
02:39:19,880 --> 02:39:22,880
And I didn't see it for just an instant, or two seconds or five minutes.

1791
02:39:22,880 --> 02:39:24,880
It was there for days.

1792
02:39:24,880 --> 02:39:30,880
So these things, I don't think we can laugh off nor discredit.

1793
02:39:30,880 --> 02:39:37,880
And I think there's too much a tendency, just because our officialdom doesn't admit these things,

1794
02:39:38,880 --> 02:39:41,880
to say that there's no reason for it.

1795
02:39:41,880 --> 02:39:47,880
To me, the biggest problem and the biggest source of worry is the attitude expressed by the Air Force.

1796
02:39:47,880 --> 02:39:50,880
I share Donald Keyho's feelings 100%.

1797
02:39:52,880 --> 02:39:57,880
When they state, or when he is on his Armstrong Circle Theater,

1798
02:39:57,880 --> 02:40:00,880
so that there might be an honest difference of opinion,

1799
02:40:00,880 --> 02:40:02,880
of course that is obviously not true,

1800
02:40:02,880 --> 02:40:07,880
but the second point was that they might be the best interests of people,

1801
02:40:07,880 --> 02:40:11,880
not to confirm UFOs until all facts are known.

1802
02:40:11,880 --> 02:40:16,880
Well now, if that is the case, neither should they deny them until all facts are known.

1803
02:40:16,880 --> 02:40:21,880
Anything less than this is distortion.

1804
02:40:21,880 --> 02:40:28,880
The Armstrong Circle Theater was an example of what distortions the Air Force causes,

1805
02:40:28,880 --> 02:40:31,880
where officialdom is concerned.

1806
02:40:31,880 --> 02:40:36,880
Now the Air Force has many times alleged that it wishes to avoid panic.

1807
02:40:36,880 --> 02:40:43,880
I believe it is doing the very thing to bring on panic by not telling the American people the truth.

1808
02:40:43,880 --> 02:40:47,880
I think the Air Force has far exceeded its authority.

1809
02:40:47,880 --> 02:40:55,880
Certainly if we hold our Constitution to be the guide by which our Federation is run.

1810
02:40:56,880 --> 02:41:02,880
The Air Force is supposed to defend the United States.

1811
02:41:02,880 --> 02:41:05,880
The Air Force is not supposed to make rules.

1812
02:41:05,880 --> 02:41:11,880
We have three departments in our government, the legislative, executive and judicial.

1813
02:41:11,880 --> 02:41:17,880
These duties and responsibilities were most carefully defined by our forefathers.

1814
02:41:17,880 --> 02:41:22,880
And because of this wonderful separation of function,

1815
02:41:22,880 --> 02:41:28,880
I believe is the reason the United States has progressed to the fantastic point it has.

1816
02:41:28,880 --> 02:41:32,880
Now however, in the field of security and nuclear weapons,

1817
02:41:32,880 --> 02:41:35,880
obviously the military must maintain secrecy.

1818
02:41:35,880 --> 02:41:38,880
But once secrecy is maintained,

1819
02:41:38,880 --> 02:41:50,880
and a certain unit of government has the ability to control completely all these functions of government,

1820
02:41:50,880 --> 02:41:55,880
here is where we get into a very bad situation.

1821
02:41:55,880 --> 02:42:01,880
The Senate document, or the publication, United States Constitution,

1822
02:42:01,880 --> 02:42:09,880
issued in 1948 by Alexander Wally, chairman of the Committee on the Judiciary of the United States Senate,

1823
02:42:09,880 --> 02:42:12,880
writes in one paragraph,

1824
02:42:12,880 --> 02:42:17,880
the Constitution has value not only as the guiding political instrument of our land,

1825
02:42:17,880 --> 02:42:23,880
but also as a guide in the economic, social and religious life of the nation.

1826
02:42:23,880 --> 02:42:30,880
The basic principle of the Constitution is that of checks and balances of division,

1827
02:42:30,880 --> 02:42:33,880
rather than concentration of power.

1828
02:42:33,880 --> 02:42:35,880
And he goes on to say that,

1829
02:42:35,880 --> 02:42:39,880
power corrupts in whosoever hands it may be,

1830
02:42:39,880 --> 02:42:45,880
and that absolute power, whatever its form, corrupts absolutely.

1831
02:42:45,880 --> 02:42:52,880
And I think this has been demonstrated very clearly by the Air Force attitude.

1832
02:42:52,880 --> 02:42:55,880
The Air Force is not a big brother.

1833
02:42:55,880 --> 02:43:01,880
The Air Force group in Washington have constituted themselves as a group of censors

1834
02:43:01,880 --> 02:43:04,880
to determine what the American people should know.

1835
02:43:04,880 --> 02:43:08,880
Now this is a thing during World War II,

1836
02:43:08,880 --> 02:43:15,880
during World War II we fought against a nation,

1837
02:43:15,880 --> 02:43:23,880
which was dictatorial, which was run by one man and a group under him.

1838
02:43:23,880 --> 02:43:28,880
This group determined what the German nation should know.

1839
02:43:28,880 --> 02:43:34,880
We have a more contemporary group in Russia which determined what the Russian people should know.

1840
02:43:34,880 --> 02:43:38,880
This is against all American basic concepts of freedom.

1841
02:43:38,880 --> 02:43:44,880
And I believe that our citizenry should go to their senators and representatives

1842
02:43:44,880 --> 02:43:52,880
and have them exert all the influence possible on the government and on the Air Force

1843
02:43:52,880 --> 02:43:57,880
to release all information which is not critical national security.

1844
02:43:57,880 --> 02:44:01,880
And flying saucers certainly are not national security.

1845
02:44:01,880 --> 02:44:05,880
This is information that belongs to the people of the United States.

1846
02:44:05,880 --> 02:44:10,880
The people of the United States are the judges, not the Air Force.

1847
02:44:10,880 --> 02:44:15,880
I hesitate, Clark, to ask the first part of my omnibus question again,

1848
02:44:15,880 --> 02:44:21,880
but why is it that you choose to put more credence in Egyptian flying machines

1849
02:44:21,880 --> 02:44:25,880
than in, say, reports of mermaids?

1850
02:44:25,880 --> 02:44:29,880
I don't recall that any reports of mermaids were made in the Book of the Dead.

1851
02:44:29,880 --> 02:44:33,880
Is that your sole source of authority in this world, the Book of the Dead?

1852
02:44:33,880 --> 02:44:39,880
It is a tremendous book of the Egyptians, one of the greatest books.

1853
02:44:39,880 --> 02:44:41,880
The Bible happens to be another book.

1854
02:44:41,880 --> 02:44:44,880
Well, I'll let that one go by for a while.

1855
02:44:44,880 --> 02:44:49,880
It seems to me, Charles, that to a certain extent your point is well taken.

1856
02:44:49,880 --> 02:44:52,880
Thank you for a certain extent.

1857
02:44:52,880 --> 02:44:57,880
Well, by this I mean it seems to me it's a perfect list to a great extent

1858
02:44:57,880 --> 02:45:01,880
to rely on these ancient reports going back to the Middle Ages

1859
02:45:01,880 --> 02:45:06,880
and to allege biblical references in the Book of Ezekiel or the like

1860
02:45:06,880 --> 02:45:10,880
when we have as late as 1880, which is fairly contemporary.

1861
02:45:10,880 --> 02:45:13,880
I go along with you, Charles. This was only background.

1862
02:45:13,880 --> 02:45:16,880
I think we can concern ourselves only with today.

1863
02:45:16,880 --> 02:45:20,880
That is right. I believe it was in the 1897 and 98

1864
02:45:20,880 --> 02:45:24,880
where some crafts were sidelved over Oakland, later over Chicago,

1865
02:45:24,880 --> 02:45:29,880
and numerous cities that seemed very, very tangible evidence.

1866
02:45:29,880 --> 02:45:32,880
But in connection with the Air Force, I'd like to ask the major

1867
02:45:32,880 --> 02:45:37,880
if he has any idea why there apparently has been a change in policy.

1868
02:45:37,880 --> 02:45:42,880
I assume there has been a change from the early 50s to the present time.

1869
02:45:42,880 --> 02:45:45,880
Would that be due to the press in Ellingtale?

1870
02:45:45,880 --> 02:45:50,880
No, it was due to the fact that one time one group was a little more powerful

1871
02:45:50,880 --> 02:45:54,880
and then somebody would be transferred and then another top-level officer

1872
02:45:54,880 --> 02:45:57,880
would come in and throw his weight.

1873
02:45:57,880 --> 02:46:03,880
The policy at first, 1947, was one of bafflement.

1874
02:46:03,880 --> 02:46:05,880
And let's see what's going on.

1875
02:46:05,880 --> 02:46:09,880
And then it began to suspect what it was and put it under wraps.

1876
02:46:09,880 --> 02:46:15,880
And then the latter part of 1948, there was some talk about putting it out,

1877
02:46:15,880 --> 02:46:17,880
and then that got knocked down.

1878
02:46:17,880 --> 02:46:21,880
And then everything was completely under wraps for a couple of years

1879
02:46:21,880 --> 02:46:24,880
and they began to get open again. Let's get serious about it.

1880
02:46:24,880 --> 02:46:28,880
In 1952, they finally decided, let's get it out and tell the people

1881
02:46:28,880 --> 02:46:31,880
even though we don't have proof and full answers.

1882
02:46:31,880 --> 02:46:36,880
And in 1953, they almost got away with it and then it was knocked down but hard.

1883
02:46:36,880 --> 02:46:40,880
And from then on, the censorship has gotten tighter and tighter

1884
02:46:40,880 --> 02:46:45,880
and the point where they will even contradict things that they have put in writing before

1885
02:46:45,880 --> 02:46:47,880
and you put them side by side.

1886
02:46:47,880 --> 02:46:50,880
It's obvious one of them can't be true.

1887
02:46:50,880 --> 02:46:56,880
In fact, that's shown up here the very time when the Armstrong Theater deal.

1888
02:46:56,880 --> 02:47:01,880
Here you had on the Armstrong Theater, you had the assistant secretary, Horner,

1889
02:47:01,880 --> 02:47:05,880
and the mistake to believe that the Air Force is withholding anything

1890
02:47:05,880 --> 02:47:08,880
and I do not qualify this in any way.

1891
02:47:08,880 --> 02:47:13,880
And the very, now that was the 22nd.

1892
02:47:13,880 --> 02:47:20,880
On the 23rd of January, Captain Gregory H. Olinberg, Langley Air Force Base, Virginia

1893
02:47:20,880 --> 02:47:25,880
wrote a letter to one of the NICAP members who asked if he could submit an advertisement

1894
02:47:25,880 --> 02:47:29,880
to run in the Langley Flyer. It's the base newspaper.

1895
02:47:29,880 --> 02:47:33,880
And all it was was they would like to hear from those interested in forming a local affiliate

1896
02:47:33,880 --> 02:47:39,880
of a national investigation network on the origin of flying saucers and UFOs

1897
02:47:39,880 --> 02:47:42,880
with the public dissemination of the data so obtained.

1898
02:47:42,880 --> 02:47:45,880
And this captain says, and this is on Air Force Stationery,

1899
02:47:45,880 --> 02:47:51,880
I objected to the running of this ad because I felt that it would encourage Air Force personnel

1900
02:47:51,880 --> 02:47:58,880
to violate present Air Force policy and specifically Air Force regulation 200-2.

1901
02:47:58,880 --> 02:48:02,880
Within 24 hours after the Air Force secretary says, nobody's hiding anything.

1902
02:48:02,880 --> 02:48:04,880
Here's a man who comes out and writes it.

1903
02:48:04,880 --> 02:48:09,880
Not only that, at the bottom of this, after turning down a much weaker advertisement,

1904
02:48:09,880 --> 02:48:13,880
he says, although the wording of these two ads has been changed,

1905
02:48:13,880 --> 02:48:18,880
it is my belief that one of the objectives of your organization is the public dissemination

1906
02:48:18,880 --> 02:48:20,880
of data on unidentified flying objects.

1907
02:48:20,880 --> 02:48:26,880
As I pointed out to you on the 20th of January, this is contrary to Air Force policy and regulations.

1908
02:48:27,880 --> 02:48:28,880
Now that's on record.

1909
02:48:28,880 --> 02:48:33,880
Now here's a man that says, if he gets the policy and regulations to disseminate any data,

1910
02:48:33,880 --> 02:48:37,880
the assistant secretary of the air gets on and says we're not hiding a thing.

1911
02:48:37,880 --> 02:48:43,880
On top of that, Major General Kelly writes a letter to NiCAP in which he says,

1912
02:48:43,880 --> 02:48:47,880
you will note that this release reaffirms the United States Air Force position

1913
02:48:47,880 --> 02:48:50,880
as to the non-existence of flying saucers.

1914
02:48:50,880 --> 02:48:54,880
Shortly after that, he wrote a letter to, well, it was quite a little after that,

1915
02:48:54,880 --> 02:48:59,880
to Senator Goldwater asking about by being knocked off the air,

1916
02:48:59,880 --> 02:49:04,880
and that was answered by Horner himself in which he says the allegations of the Air Force

1917
02:49:04,880 --> 02:49:09,880
as withheld information on UFOs are entirely an error.

1918
02:49:09,880 --> 02:49:12,880
Who are you going to believe and why?

1919
02:49:12,880 --> 02:49:16,880
Well, Major, excuse me, this is very pertinent to this.

1920
02:49:16,880 --> 02:49:21,880
You mentioned several times the Air Force regulation, I think, 200-something or other,

1921
02:49:21,880 --> 02:49:28,880
200-2, and I wonder if perhaps a wrong interpretation may not be being put on this.

1922
02:49:28,880 --> 02:49:36,880
I am not at all familiar with this, but here is how I might reconstruct the thinking of the Air Force

1923
02:49:36,880 --> 02:49:40,880
in issuing that, and in this gentleman's refusing this ad,

1924
02:49:40,880 --> 02:49:46,880
is that I should think it would be very logical for the Air Force to desire that its personnel

1925
02:49:46,880 --> 02:49:52,880
hold down to a minimum any discussion of objects they see going around the sky

1926
02:49:52,880 --> 02:49:58,880
with the thought in mind, one, that the objects that they do see might be secret, experimental,

1927
02:49:58,880 --> 02:50:03,880
and so forth, American craft, not flying saucers or anything related to them,

1928
02:50:03,880 --> 02:50:08,880
and if the boys see a few things zipping around and they get together downtown

1929
02:50:08,880 --> 02:50:13,880
in the little room behind the bar and in comes the local barber and the local spy and so forth,

1930
02:50:14,880 --> 02:50:18,880
and they talk over these things, see Jesus was going 9,000 miles an hour

1931
02:50:18,880 --> 02:50:22,880
and it made a right-angled turn and it spit green bolts and so forth,

1932
02:50:22,880 --> 02:50:27,880
and here they are, all unawares, of course, with certainly no subversive intention,

1933
02:50:27,880 --> 02:50:32,880
hashing over possible secret developments of the American Air Force,

1934
02:50:32,880 --> 02:50:37,880
and this is only one reason I can see for them being a little reluctant to have their personnel

1935
02:50:37,880 --> 02:50:40,880
going around talking up all the things they've seen in the sky.

1936
02:50:41,880 --> 02:50:45,880
Well, that, I can see your reason for thinking so,

1937
02:50:45,880 --> 02:50:50,880
but if you had examined all the Air Force documents, you would know that they specify there's a difference.

1938
02:50:50,880 --> 02:50:57,880
When they talk about UFOs, they specify that these are entirely different from ordinary missiles or aircraft types.

1939
02:50:57,880 --> 02:51:03,880
The Navy says the same thing in its order. This particular one, here's the way it reads,

1940
02:51:03,880 --> 02:51:08,880
relates to any airborne object which by performance aerodynamic characteristics or unusual features

1941
02:51:08,880 --> 02:51:11,880
does not conform to any presently known aircraft or missile type.

1942
02:51:11,880 --> 02:51:15,880
Well, doesn't this exactly describe a perhaps experimental American thing?

1943
02:51:15,880 --> 02:51:21,880
They don't test experimental devices along airways flying around airliners,

1944
02:51:21,880 --> 02:51:24,880
getting so close to them that they scare the pilot to death

1945
02:51:24,880 --> 02:51:30,880
and sometimes cause people to panic as they did down in Brazil, the whole formation of these things.

1946
02:51:30,880 --> 02:51:35,880
If we're flying those things around Brazil, we're not going to have any friends in South America left.

1947
02:51:35,880 --> 02:51:40,880
And they've been, you don't have them flying over cities, you don't have them buzzing aircraft,

1948
02:51:40,880 --> 02:51:43,880
flying head on at them and scaring people to death.

1949
02:51:43,880 --> 02:51:47,880
Major, the thing that I want to get at is that this was not directed.

1950
02:51:47,880 --> 02:51:51,880
This Air Force regulation was directed, as I understand it, to all Air Force personnel.

1951
02:51:51,880 --> 02:51:53,880
It was directed to all Air Force personnel.

1952
02:51:53,880 --> 02:51:58,880
And not just at personnel who happened to be stationed on or near populated airways

1953
02:51:58,880 --> 02:52:00,880
or who happened to be stationed in Brazil.

1954
02:52:00,880 --> 02:52:03,880
They don't want them, as I might reconstruct,

1955
02:52:03,880 --> 02:52:07,880
they don't want them talking up anything they see flying around

1956
02:52:07,880 --> 02:52:13,880
for fear the guy who happens to be on base or off base at Alamo Gordo may spill something

1957
02:52:13,880 --> 02:52:18,880
and I certainly don't think they could say this only applies to people around Alamo Gordo, New Mexico

1958
02:52:18,880 --> 02:52:20,880
without automatically spilling it themselves.

1959
02:52:20,880 --> 02:52:23,880
They do have special instructions down there at those places

1960
02:52:23,880 --> 02:52:28,880
and most of the people that are down there understand what is under test.

1961
02:52:28,880 --> 02:52:29,880
We haven't anything.

1962
02:52:29,880 --> 02:52:35,880
We have no round airforms, 100 feet or more on diameter,

1963
02:52:35,880 --> 02:52:40,880
which can be tracked on radar up to speeds of 7,200 miles an hour over airports,

1964
02:52:40,880 --> 02:52:45,880
which has been done on record, worse than airport triangulation by three radars.

1965
02:52:45,880 --> 02:52:48,880
Flying around, buzzing airliners and everything else.

1966
02:52:48,880 --> 02:52:52,880
But the point I was talking about in this regulation is that it says in here, right in the back,

1967
02:52:52,880 --> 02:52:55,880
about release of facts.

1968
02:52:55,880 --> 02:53:05,880
It is permissible to inform news media representatives when the object is positively identified as a familiar object.

1969
02:53:05,880 --> 02:53:11,880
For those objects which are not explainable, only the fact that the ATIC will analyze them can be released.

1970
02:53:11,880 --> 02:53:15,880
In other words, if you can explain it away, tell the newspapers.

1971
02:53:15,880 --> 02:53:18,880
If you can't explain it away, keep your mouth shut.

1972
02:53:18,880 --> 02:53:22,880
I'd like to ask you one question, Major Keyhole.

1973
02:53:22,880 --> 02:53:35,880
You mentioned earlier this morning that you felt that possibly the Air Force told the producer and the writer of the Armstrong Circle Theater

1974
02:53:35,880 --> 02:53:41,880
that certain material should be deleted from that telecast.

1975
02:53:41,880 --> 02:53:43,880
This was your impression. Am I right, sir?

1976
02:53:43,880 --> 02:53:44,880
Yes.

1977
02:53:44,880 --> 02:53:45,880
Am I misquoting you?

1978
02:53:45,880 --> 02:53:46,880
That's what I was told.

1979
02:53:46,880 --> 02:53:47,880
Yes.

1980
02:53:47,880 --> 02:53:57,880
If this is true, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, why is it that I can sit up here seven nights a week,

1981
02:53:57,880 --> 02:54:02,880
and I certainly don't want to appear to be an egotist that this is a great important show to the nation,

1982
02:54:02,880 --> 02:54:07,880
but nevertheless it is available to a lot of people.

1983
02:54:07,880 --> 02:54:11,880
A lot of people can listen to it because we cover 27 states.

1984
02:54:11,880 --> 02:54:18,880
And how is it that no one came over to me and said or sent me a wire or a letter and said,

1985
02:54:18,880 --> 02:54:26,880
John, when you have this fellow Keyhole on tonight, don't let him say anything about the Air Force.

1986
02:54:26,880 --> 02:54:28,880
Don't let him say this, that and the other thing.

1987
02:54:28,880 --> 02:54:32,880
Now, there's no secret that you were going to be on here this morning, sir.

1988
02:54:32,880 --> 02:54:33,880
Very good reason.

1989
02:54:33,880 --> 02:54:35,880
I've announced it all week.

1990
02:54:35,880 --> 02:54:36,880
Very good reason.

1991
02:54:36,880 --> 02:54:38,880
You don't have an Air Force representative here.

1992
02:54:38,880 --> 02:54:42,880
The minute you get an Air Force representative in this room, I am censured.

1993
02:54:42,880 --> 02:54:44,880
You're not going to be able to let me speak freely here.

1994
02:54:44,880 --> 02:54:46,880
I wonder if Charles is going to be able to do so.

1995
02:54:46,880 --> 02:54:47,880
Maybe.

1996
02:54:47,880 --> 02:54:48,880
Super Agent.

1997
02:54:48,880 --> 02:54:50,880
The Air Force is all that program.

1998
02:54:50,880 --> 02:54:51,880
I see.

1999
02:54:51,880 --> 02:54:53,880
That made it semi-official, and they didn't dare let anybody in.

2000
02:54:53,880 --> 02:54:55,880
I'm glad you clarified that.

2001
02:54:55,880 --> 02:54:57,880
Uh, Jules B. St. Germain.

2002
02:54:57,880 --> 02:54:59,880
I'm going to ask you, Major.

2003
02:54:59,880 --> 02:55:03,880
I'm going to link them my name because he gets so much billing just by sending that name.

2004
02:55:03,880 --> 02:55:04,880
What's his name?

2005
02:55:04,880 --> 02:55:05,880
Well, this is Bill.

2006
02:55:05,880 --> 02:55:06,880
Gentlemen?

2007
02:55:06,880 --> 02:55:08,880
Well, I'm not going to say it's too bad to after all.

2008
02:55:08,880 --> 02:55:12,880
By the time John has stated my name in full, I forgot the question I was going to ask,

2009
02:55:12,880 --> 02:55:15,880
originally, as is the case now.

2010
02:55:15,880 --> 02:55:20,880
Major, I was going to ask you, I know I think you've been in television several times and

2011
02:55:20,880 --> 02:55:21,880
on the air.

2012
02:55:21,880 --> 02:55:27,880
I've been interested in this idea of a television program and planned on the presentation of

2013
02:55:27,880 --> 02:55:28,880
a series.

2014
02:55:28,880 --> 02:55:35,880
Do you not feel that this type of program, whether it be on radio or television, with a spontaneous

2015
02:55:35,880 --> 02:55:40,080
and well, an unrehearsed aspect.

2016
02:55:40,080 --> 02:55:42,480
Is that far more interesting to the public

2017
02:55:42,480 --> 02:55:45,280
than one which is more or less canned and rehearsed?

2018
02:55:46,640 --> 02:55:48,680
Well, I should think so, depending of course

2019
02:55:48,680 --> 02:55:50,760
whether you're going to include sightings.

2020
02:55:50,760 --> 02:55:53,200
I think discussions will hold in us for a while.

2021
02:55:53,200 --> 02:55:57,360
I think you're going to have to include

2022
02:55:57,360 --> 02:56:00,160
a number of dramatic cases and dramatic developments

2023
02:56:00,160 --> 02:56:01,640
in a series of that kind.

2024
02:56:01,640 --> 02:56:04,320
People won't listen entirely to discussion.

2025
02:56:04,480 --> 02:56:07,560
If you could have say one interesting new case

2026
02:56:07,560 --> 02:56:09,480
or bring up one that hasn't been well known

2027
02:56:09,480 --> 02:56:11,960
or examine an old one that is well known

2028
02:56:11,960 --> 02:56:13,480
and gives some new information on it,

2029
02:56:13,480 --> 02:56:15,040
you'd have a program.

2030
02:56:15,040 --> 02:56:17,640
Yes, but the point I'm making is particularly,

2031
02:56:17,640 --> 02:56:21,600
I enjoy the arm-string cycle very much,

2032
02:56:21,600 --> 02:56:25,960
but the rehearsed aspects seem to me to detract

2033
02:56:25,960 --> 02:56:28,600
from what could have been a more interesting program.

2034
02:56:28,600 --> 02:56:30,040
I didn't know if you felt the same way.

2035
02:56:30,040 --> 02:56:32,000
Well, I wanted it unrehearsed, but they said

2036
02:56:32,400 --> 02:56:35,200
the force would not go on it for anything like that.

2037
02:56:35,200 --> 02:56:37,880
I had been hoping that I could say you tangled

2038
02:56:37,880 --> 02:56:40,160
with Professor Menzel, which I'm sure

2039
02:56:40,160 --> 02:56:41,400
would have been very interesting.

2040
02:56:41,400 --> 02:56:44,120
I wanted to tangle myself and I heard him speak.

2041
02:56:44,120 --> 02:56:47,520
Very frankly, prior to that broadcast,

2042
02:56:47,520 --> 02:56:51,160
I had not shared some of the harsh sentiments

2043
02:56:51,160 --> 02:56:54,200
concerning the Air Force, but I considered

2044
02:56:54,200 --> 02:56:57,280
their presentation on the arm-string cycle fair

2045
02:56:57,280 --> 02:56:59,960
to a direct insult to my intelligence.

2046
02:57:00,000 --> 02:57:03,680
It was not only ridicule, it was distortion.

2047
02:57:03,680 --> 02:57:06,480
And nevertheless, I found in speaking to people

2048
02:57:06,480 --> 02:57:09,640
the next day that apparently the Air Force

2049
02:57:09,640 --> 02:57:12,120
impressed the average listener.

2050
02:57:12,120 --> 02:57:14,880
If the people I spoke to were the average listener,

2051
02:57:14,880 --> 02:57:18,680
although to me it seemed the most ridiculous double talk.

2052
02:57:18,680 --> 02:57:22,000
How about you, Charles, as an objective individual,

2053
02:57:22,000 --> 02:57:24,720
what was your reaction to the Air Force presentation?

2054
02:57:24,720 --> 02:57:26,280
Unfortunately, I didn't see it, Jules.

2055
02:57:26,280 --> 02:57:28,280
Well, he's sick, but it ain't the number one.

2056
02:57:28,280 --> 02:57:31,240
I, in fact, wrote the script for the Air Force on that,

2057
02:57:31,240 --> 02:57:33,080
so I'm not qualified to judge.

2058
02:57:33,080 --> 02:57:35,920
One thing particularly, though, which I thought

2059
02:57:35,920 --> 02:57:40,400
was a little unfair, was a kind of Whedon who represented.

2060
02:57:40,400 --> 02:57:41,040
Whedon, that's right.

2061
02:57:41,040 --> 02:57:41,920
Yes.

2062
02:57:41,920 --> 02:57:44,320
He referred to one particular case,

2063
02:57:44,320 --> 02:57:46,560
now, Hopkinsville, Kentucky, which I'm sure

2064
02:57:46,560 --> 02:57:49,600
you are familiar with in his basic details.

2065
02:57:49,600 --> 02:57:53,880
And the presentation there was such as to directly invite

2066
02:57:53,880 --> 02:57:57,840
ridicule and augmented by the fact

2067
02:57:57,840 --> 02:58:01,000
that he claimed that this particular sighting,

2068
02:58:01,000 --> 02:58:03,720
and this was a little man case, so to speak,

2069
02:58:03,720 --> 02:58:09,240
in the broadest sense, happened after a spirited meeting,

2070
02:58:09,240 --> 02:58:11,760
which to me would indicate that it

2071
02:58:11,760 --> 02:58:15,400
was some type of religious meeting

2072
02:58:15,400 --> 02:58:18,840
that threw the people off completely out of tangent.

2073
02:58:18,840 --> 02:58:21,800
And as I understand it, there, I believe,

2074
02:58:21,800 --> 02:58:25,640
is somewhere 11 or 12 witnesses, professed witnesses,

2075
02:58:25,640 --> 02:58:28,000
at least, in this particular occurrence.

2076
02:58:28,000 --> 02:58:30,520
In your research, do you come across anything

2077
02:58:30,520 --> 02:58:35,400
that would indicate that this particular happening, the little

2078
02:58:35,400 --> 02:58:37,720
man happening in Hopkinsville, was induced

2079
02:58:37,720 --> 02:58:42,360
by any type of hysteria or induced by religious meetings?

2080
02:58:42,360 --> 02:58:43,440
I am sorry.

2081
02:58:43,440 --> 02:58:46,120
I'm going to have to admit that I'm not

2082
02:58:46,120 --> 02:58:49,080
prepared to answer that fully, because while we have some

2083
02:58:49,080 --> 02:58:51,560
information on it, I know that other people have more.

2084
02:58:51,560 --> 02:58:53,800
We're trying to collect more on that.

2085
02:58:53,800 --> 02:58:56,960
Because at first, I thought that it was probably

2086
02:58:56,960 --> 02:58:59,480
just another wild tale, and I found so many people

2087
02:58:59,480 --> 02:59:01,880
that were taking it seriously that we better

2088
02:59:01,880 --> 02:59:03,280
look into it a little bit more.

2089
02:59:03,280 --> 02:59:06,520
So my honest couldn't give you an honest answer on that.

2090
02:59:06,520 --> 02:59:09,480
I don't, that's the first time I ever heard of that, though,

2091
02:59:09,480 --> 02:59:10,960
when the Air Force was fighting it.

2092
02:59:10,960 --> 02:59:15,000
And even if it were true, the way it was said,

2093
02:59:15,000 --> 02:59:19,080
it was such a, to cast discredit on almost anybody

2094
02:59:19,080 --> 02:59:21,000
who might report such a thing.

2095
02:59:21,000 --> 02:59:22,000
That's right.

2096
02:59:22,000 --> 02:59:26,320
Yeah, they spent a lot of time on the contact stories,

2097
02:59:26,320 --> 02:59:31,400
in that particular case ridiculing, whereas they could have,

2098
02:59:31,400 --> 02:59:34,800
if they'd only held it down a little bit,

2099
02:59:34,800 --> 02:59:37,800
we'd have had more serious discussions.

2100
02:59:37,800 --> 02:59:41,240
They could have canned theirs, or condensed it,

2101
02:59:41,240 --> 02:59:43,520
into half of the time.

2102
02:59:43,520 --> 02:59:46,080
Well, in the Armstrong Circle Theater,

2103
02:59:46,080 --> 02:59:50,320
two major key hoes, you know, Ken Arnold had two pictures

2104
02:59:50,320 --> 02:59:52,840
by the Air Force, which had been given him

2105
02:59:52,840 --> 02:59:55,160
as official photographs, and they would not permit him

2106
02:59:55,160 --> 02:59:57,760
to show it, show them.

2107
02:59:57,760 --> 03:00:01,160
Whereas they did show ones of their own.

2108
03:00:01,160 --> 03:00:03,760
And he had statements too that he wanted to make,

2109
03:00:03,760 --> 03:00:06,040
and they would not permit it any more than they

2110
03:00:06,040 --> 03:00:08,000
had permitted you to make statements.

2111
03:00:08,000 --> 03:00:10,200
Well, I heard that, but I wasn't present during any

2112
03:00:10,200 --> 03:00:12,800
of the discussion, so I wouldn't know it at first hand knowledge.

2113
03:00:12,800 --> 03:00:14,080
Well, I talked to him personally.

2114
03:00:14,080 --> 03:00:17,360
Well, he told me that, but I mean, I didn't hear it.

2115
03:00:17,360 --> 03:00:18,480
Charles?

2116
03:00:18,480 --> 03:00:20,440
Major, there's been a lot of discussion,

2117
03:00:20,440 --> 03:00:24,040
particularly from you, about Air Force suppression

2118
03:00:24,040 --> 03:00:27,280
of facts on flying saucers.

2119
03:00:27,280 --> 03:00:29,760
And I call to mind when I hear you speak of this,

2120
03:00:29,760 --> 03:00:33,720
a case which was presented to us here several months ago,

2121
03:00:33,720 --> 03:00:35,560
which was outlined in a book called

2122
03:00:35,560 --> 03:00:38,160
They Knew Too Much About Flying Saucers,

2123
03:00:38,160 --> 03:00:43,040
in which there were supposedly three men in black.

2124
03:00:43,040 --> 03:00:44,640
I don't know why they should happen to be in black,

2125
03:00:44,640 --> 03:00:46,720
but if what you have to say is true,

2126
03:00:46,720 --> 03:00:49,640
they would, I should think, be from the Air Force,

2127
03:00:49,640 --> 03:00:53,640
who approached a gentleman who was an editor or a head

2128
03:00:53,640 --> 03:00:56,880
of a flying saucer organization who said that he knew

2129
03:00:56,880 --> 03:00:59,320
the secret behind the flying saucers.

2130
03:00:59,320 --> 03:01:03,720
They visited him and apparently put such a scare into him

2131
03:01:03,720 --> 03:01:06,440
that he has since that day refused, I think,

2132
03:01:06,440 --> 03:01:09,560
even to say the word flying or the word saucer.

2133
03:01:09,560 --> 03:01:12,520
And what I'm wondering is, seeing as this thing

2134
03:01:12,520 --> 03:01:16,160
so closely fits what appears to be the NICAP idea,

2135
03:01:16,160 --> 03:01:19,640
suppression, perhaps intimidation, censorship,

2136
03:01:19,640 --> 03:01:21,800
if you feel there's any connection between them.

2137
03:01:21,800 --> 03:01:23,720
I'm sorry, I have to interrupt it this time.

2138
03:01:23,720 --> 03:01:26,800
Before Major Kehoe answers that,

2139
03:01:26,800 --> 03:01:28,800
I know that you're referring to the book,

2140
03:01:28,800 --> 03:01:30,800
They Knew Too Much About Flying Saucers.

2141
03:01:30,800 --> 03:01:33,080
This fellow bended and they claimed that three men came

2142
03:01:33,080 --> 03:01:35,400
up in black and stopped and he doesn't talk anymore.

2143
03:01:35,440 --> 03:01:39,880
I think that I can personally recommend NICAP to you.

2144
03:01:40,880 --> 03:01:44,880
Now, NICAP offers memberships and publications

2145
03:01:44,880 --> 03:01:49,000
that give authentic UFO sightings and up-to-date developments

2146
03:01:49,000 --> 03:01:52,200
about unidentified flying objects.

2147
03:01:53,360 --> 03:01:56,520
NICAP is located in Washington, D.C.

2148
03:01:57,440 --> 03:02:01,520
And if you become a NICAP associate member,

2149
03:02:01,520 --> 03:02:04,640
you will be entitled to a year's subscription

2150
03:02:04,640 --> 03:02:09,640
to NICAP Magazine, that's the UFO investigator,

2151
03:02:10,760 --> 03:02:14,240
and to special in all confidential bulletins

2152
03:02:14,240 --> 03:02:16,440
as issued from time to time.

2153
03:02:17,320 --> 03:02:20,040
Now, this is not a magazine that has a lot of ads in it.

2154
03:02:20,040 --> 03:02:21,360
There are no ads to my knowledge,

2155
03:02:21,360 --> 03:02:23,360
at least I've never seen any.

2156
03:02:23,360 --> 03:02:26,440
This is a private, non-profit organization.

2157
03:02:27,680 --> 03:02:31,040
It was set up a few years ago and Major Donnelly Kehoe

2158
03:02:31,040 --> 03:02:32,600
was the director of NICAP.

2159
03:02:33,600 --> 03:02:37,240
And I happen to be a member of it.

2160
03:02:37,240 --> 03:02:38,680
To the courtesy I might add,

2161
03:02:38,680 --> 03:02:40,920
is one of our listeners who's kind enough

2162
03:02:40,920 --> 03:02:42,760
to make me a member.

2163
03:02:42,760 --> 03:02:45,800
And Court Hastings is a member and,

2164
03:02:45,800 --> 03:02:46,920
Jules, you're a member, aren't you?

2165
03:02:46,920 --> 03:02:47,960
Yeah, I'm an associate member.

2166
03:02:47,960 --> 03:02:49,760
Yeah, I'm an associate member.

2167
03:02:49,760 --> 03:02:53,200
So if you'd be interested in learning more about NICAP,

2168
03:02:54,720 --> 03:02:56,640
you might get a pencil and paper

2169
03:02:56,640 --> 03:02:59,280
and I'll give you that address in a moment.

2170
03:02:59,280 --> 03:03:01,920
I'll give you the address and tell you the detail.

2171
03:03:01,960 --> 03:03:04,840
Now, if you got your pencil and paper ready,

2172
03:03:04,840 --> 03:03:07,800
as I say, this is not a commercial,

2173
03:03:07,800 --> 03:03:10,760
but I have the pleasure of seeing

2174
03:03:10,760 --> 03:03:14,280
a number of Saucer publications every month.

2175
03:03:15,440 --> 03:03:17,760
And in my humble opinion,

2176
03:03:17,760 --> 03:03:20,360
I think that NICAP is really outstanding.

2177
03:03:20,360 --> 03:03:23,200
I'm not going to sit up here and say to you,

2178
03:03:23,200 --> 03:03:25,400
it's the best, I think there are many great ones,

2179
03:03:25,400 --> 03:03:29,200
but I think that this is an unbiased publication.

2180
03:03:30,200 --> 03:03:34,240
I think it's a publication that is worth reading.

2181
03:03:34,240 --> 03:03:36,320
It's certainly one that you're not going to read

2182
03:03:36,320 --> 03:03:38,720
and throw it away like you will possibly do

2183
03:03:38,720 --> 03:03:39,840
with some magazines.

2184
03:03:39,840 --> 03:03:42,240
It's something that you'll keep in your files for years

2185
03:03:42,240 --> 03:03:44,880
for reference to check back from time to time.

2186
03:03:45,880 --> 03:03:48,400
If you're interested in knowing more about NICAP,

2187
03:03:48,400 --> 03:03:52,320
and please bear in mind, it's a non-profit organization.

2188
03:03:52,320 --> 03:03:55,920
And if you feel that as an American citizen,

2189
03:03:55,920 --> 03:03:58,680
that you should be enlightened from time to time

2190
03:03:58,680 --> 03:04:00,160
as far as what's happening.

2191
03:04:01,640 --> 03:04:03,200
When we say what's happening,

2192
03:04:03,200 --> 03:04:06,600
I mean in reference to the possibility of flying Saucers,

2193
03:04:06,600 --> 03:04:10,080
then I think that you should, it is your duty

2194
03:04:10,080 --> 03:04:13,400
to become an associate member of NICAP,

2195
03:04:13,400 --> 03:04:16,600
because that's what this organization was set up for,

2196
03:04:16,600 --> 03:04:19,640
to investigate the UFOs.

2197
03:04:19,640 --> 03:04:21,720
Now the address, you have your pencil and paper ready?

2198
03:04:21,720 --> 03:04:22,840
I'll give it to you now.

2199
03:04:23,960 --> 03:04:28,120
NICAP, N-I-C-A-P, NICAP,

2200
03:04:28,280 --> 03:04:30,000
N-I-C-A-P.

2201
03:04:31,800 --> 03:04:36,800
The address, 1536 Connecticut Avenue.

2202
03:04:36,880 --> 03:04:41,080
That's one, five, three, six, Connecticut Avenue,

2203
03:04:41,080 --> 03:04:46,080
Washington, six, D.C., Washington Zone Six, D.C.

2204
03:04:47,960 --> 03:04:50,240
You send them a card or a letter,

2205
03:04:50,240 --> 03:04:51,800
and you can get the information that you want

2206
03:04:51,800 --> 03:04:54,720
about becoming an associate member of NICAP.

2207
03:04:54,720 --> 03:04:58,000
My guests this morning, Major Donnelly Kehoe,

2208
03:04:58,040 --> 03:05:01,200
director of NICAP, Charles Letham,

2209
03:05:01,200 --> 03:05:03,920
Cortland Hastings, and Jules B. St. Germain.

2210
03:05:05,040 --> 03:05:08,320
Major Kehoe, Charles brought up a rather interesting question,

2211
03:05:08,320 --> 03:05:09,680
and I'd like your answer to it.

2212
03:05:09,680 --> 03:05:12,760
Now the question again, Charles Letham was interested

2213
03:05:12,760 --> 03:05:17,440
in your opinion about the story that's related in the book

2214
03:05:17,440 --> 03:05:19,680
they knew too much about flying Saucers.

2215
03:05:19,680 --> 03:05:22,520
Gray Barker is the author of that book,

2216
03:05:22,520 --> 03:05:25,300
and in that book he relates a story about a man

2217
03:05:25,300 --> 03:05:29,220
by the name of Bender, who resides in Bridgeport, Connecticut.

2218
03:05:30,420 --> 03:05:35,420
Bender had a saucer club, and he used to exchange

2219
03:05:38,100 --> 03:05:41,860
brochures and ideas and letters with people

2220
03:05:41,860 --> 03:05:44,940
in all parts of the world who were interested in saucers,

2221
03:05:44,940 --> 03:05:49,940
and I think he published a little offset paper

2222
03:05:50,780 --> 03:05:54,020
once a month or a bimonthly publication.

2223
03:05:54,020 --> 03:05:56,180
He was very interested in saucers,

2224
03:05:57,140 --> 03:05:59,700
and all of a sudden he didn't talk anymore

2225
03:05:59,700 --> 03:06:00,900
about flying saucers.

2226
03:06:00,900 --> 03:06:03,020
He won't talk to anybody about them.

2227
03:06:03,020 --> 03:06:06,860
Now, it has been stated in the book

2228
03:06:06,860 --> 03:06:08,900
they knew too much about flying saucers

2229
03:06:08,900 --> 03:06:13,340
that three men in black visited Bender's home

2230
03:06:13,340 --> 03:06:16,620
in Bridgeport, Connecticut, said something to him,

2231
03:06:16,620 --> 03:06:20,200
what they said no one seems to know, except Mr. Bender,

2232
03:06:20,200 --> 03:06:22,740
but all we know is that Mr. Bender has nothing to do

2233
03:06:22,740 --> 03:06:24,860
with flying saucers anymore.

2234
03:06:24,860 --> 03:06:29,460
Do you think, Major Kehoe, that these three men,

2235
03:06:29,460 --> 03:06:34,140
if there were three men, that they were from the Air Force

2236
03:06:34,140 --> 03:06:35,740
or some branch of our government,

2237
03:06:35,740 --> 03:06:37,980
and that they silenced Bender?

2238
03:06:39,500 --> 03:06:40,940
No, I don't think so.

2239
03:06:40,940 --> 03:06:43,260
Of course, that's merely a personal opinion

2240
03:06:43,260 --> 03:06:44,900
without anything to back it up.

2241
03:06:44,900 --> 03:06:46,420
You're familiar with the story, aren't you?

2242
03:06:46,420 --> 03:06:47,780
Yes, perfectly familiar with it,

2243
03:06:47,780 --> 03:06:50,340
and I've heard all sorts of speculation

2244
03:06:50,340 --> 03:06:54,460
as to why he might have decided to stop publishing

2245
03:06:54,460 --> 03:06:56,780
if that were not the exact reason,

2246
03:06:56,780 --> 03:06:58,520
and I don't want to do him any injustice

2247
03:06:58,520 --> 03:07:01,220
because I have never talked with him personally.

2248
03:07:01,220 --> 03:07:05,180
I can only say this, that if any three men in black

2249
03:07:05,180 --> 03:07:10,180
come to see me, they're gonna have to have some sort of

2250
03:07:11,060 --> 03:07:13,900
threat that I can't visualize now,

2251
03:07:13,900 --> 03:07:16,100
or some awfully powerful credentials.

2252
03:07:16,100 --> 03:07:19,780
Now, I've advised our members and anyone else

2253
03:07:19,780 --> 03:07:24,780
who is threatened about talking to ask for credentials,

2254
03:07:26,220 --> 03:07:30,220
the name of the order under which they are operating,

2255
03:07:30,220 --> 03:07:32,020
and someone, a witness in there,

2256
03:07:32,020 --> 03:07:34,220
to take notice of the whole thing

2257
03:07:34,220 --> 03:07:35,460
so there'd be a matter of record.

2258
03:07:35,460 --> 03:07:37,780
And I personally don't know anything

2259
03:07:37,780 --> 03:07:39,380
that would give anyone authority

2260
03:07:39,380 --> 03:07:41,940
to tell you stop talking about flying saucers.

2261
03:07:41,940 --> 03:07:44,420
I have heard some stories, Major,

2262
03:07:44,420 --> 03:07:47,540
about the Air Force having been given,

2263
03:07:47,580 --> 03:07:50,420
I don't think the word seized would apply,

2264
03:07:50,420 --> 03:07:55,020
various films of alleged UFOs,

2265
03:07:55,020 --> 03:07:56,940
and that having been returned.

2266
03:07:56,940 --> 03:07:57,980
Oh yes, that's true.

2267
03:07:57,980 --> 03:07:59,620
It has that been substantiated?

2268
03:07:59,620 --> 03:08:03,900
Yes, that's true, and I know one case where that's happened,

2269
03:08:03,900 --> 03:08:07,740
and that's not the same thing.

2270
03:08:07,740 --> 03:08:11,180
Usually in those cases, the Air Force asks for the original,

2271
03:08:11,180 --> 03:08:13,500
and in one case that I know of,

2272
03:08:13,500 --> 03:08:14,780
because I was right in the middle,

2273
03:08:14,780 --> 03:08:15,620
I held hand with it,

2274
03:08:15,620 --> 03:08:19,620
they said they would give the man a copy or two.

2275
03:08:19,620 --> 03:08:21,820
When he got the copies, he swore up and down

2276
03:08:21,820 --> 03:08:23,940
they were useless and demanded the original back,

2277
03:08:23,940 --> 03:08:26,340
I don't know whatever happened.

2278
03:08:26,340 --> 03:08:28,220
In that particular case,

2279
03:08:28,220 --> 03:08:31,380
I'm not sure that these things were bonafide UFOs.

2280
03:08:31,380 --> 03:08:33,460
They looked at me like sun dogs,

2281
03:08:33,460 --> 03:08:35,900
but regardless, he didn't get his original back

2282
03:08:35,900 --> 03:08:37,500
the last time I heard from him.

2283
03:08:37,500 --> 03:08:38,580
But this other thing,

2284
03:08:39,980 --> 03:08:41,780
there's something supposed to be sinister

2285
03:08:41,780 --> 03:08:43,540
about three men dressed in black.

2286
03:08:44,380 --> 03:08:46,300
I personally don't find it sinister,

2287
03:08:46,300 --> 03:08:48,860
unless they're undertakers or something like that.

2288
03:08:48,860 --> 03:08:50,340
But that's not sinister.

2289
03:08:50,340 --> 03:08:51,180
Huh?

2290
03:08:51,180 --> 03:08:52,020
That's the end.

2291
03:08:52,020 --> 03:08:54,180
I don't know, but anyway,

2292
03:08:55,100 --> 03:08:57,740
no one has ever tried to silence me,

2293
03:08:57,740 --> 03:09:00,660
except in one case where they tried to argue me

2294
03:09:00,660 --> 03:09:02,100
and not writing it,

2295
03:09:02,100 --> 03:09:04,260
to not writing anymore about,

2296
03:09:04,260 --> 03:09:05,940
did I split an infinity there,

2297
03:09:05,940 --> 03:09:07,940
about flying saucers.

2298
03:09:07,940 --> 03:09:09,260
That was done in the open though,

2299
03:09:09,260 --> 03:09:11,340
it was done in the office of General Sory Smith,

2300
03:09:11,340 --> 03:09:13,100
who was then director of information there,

2301
03:09:13,140 --> 03:09:14,900
for say, one man press conference

2302
03:09:14,900 --> 03:09:18,900
with Major Jerry Boggs of Intelligence and two, three others.

2303
03:09:18,900 --> 03:09:20,180
And they tried to convince me

2304
03:09:20,180 --> 03:09:22,420
that everything that I had heard was wrong

2305
03:09:22,420 --> 03:09:24,420
and would I now stop talking?

2306
03:09:24,420 --> 03:09:25,260
And they got through,

2307
03:09:25,260 --> 03:09:27,340
I said, no, I'm more convinced than ever,

2308
03:09:27,340 --> 03:09:28,660
you people are sitting on something,

2309
03:09:28,660 --> 03:09:31,020
and they said, well, then we've wasted our time.

2310
03:09:31,020 --> 03:09:33,780
But nothing else, no threats.

2311
03:09:33,780 --> 03:09:36,660
Gentlemen, I'd like to make this suggestion

2312
03:09:36,660 --> 03:09:39,740
in talking with Major Kehoe a few days ago.

2313
03:09:39,740 --> 03:09:41,300
He was in Washington at the time

2314
03:09:41,300 --> 03:09:43,780
and I contacted him by phone.

2315
03:09:43,780 --> 03:09:46,780
And he said that he didn't think it would be possible for him

2316
03:09:46,780 --> 03:09:49,340
to appear on the program this morning,

2317
03:09:49,340 --> 03:09:51,260
and he felt that he would be too tired.

2318
03:09:51,260 --> 03:09:53,900
He's been working a number of hours every day

2319
03:09:53,900 --> 03:09:57,580
and had possibly an average of four or five hours sleep a day

2320
03:09:57,580 --> 03:09:59,740
for the last few months.

2321
03:09:59,740 --> 03:10:01,540
And after talking to him for a while,

2322
03:10:01,540 --> 03:10:05,140
he agreed to come on for about an hour to an hour and a half.

2323
03:10:05,140 --> 03:10:07,620
So he's been with us for three hours and 15 minutes,

2324
03:10:07,620 --> 03:10:08,980
and I appreciated very much.

2325
03:10:08,980 --> 03:10:10,940
And I have no doubt that everybody's sitting

2326
03:10:10,940 --> 03:10:14,100
around the table who'll share my enthusiasm

2327
03:10:14,100 --> 03:10:16,100
and agree with me that it's been very kind

2328
03:10:16,100 --> 03:10:18,980
and part of Major Kehoe to join us.

2329
03:10:18,980 --> 03:10:20,380
Now, I think in all fairness to him,

2330
03:10:20,380 --> 03:10:24,220
we should leave him get a little sleep,

2331
03:10:24,220 --> 03:10:26,580
but let's take a little more advantage of him

2332
03:10:26,580 --> 03:10:29,700
and keep me here for, say, about another 15 minutes,

2333
03:10:29,700 --> 03:10:32,220
and I'll give each one of you gentlemen an opportunity

2334
03:10:32,220 --> 03:10:35,580
to talk with Major Kehoe for about five minutes.

2335
03:10:35,580 --> 03:10:37,140
So if you'll give him short questions,

2336
03:10:37,140 --> 03:10:38,860
maybe we can get fairly short answers

2337
03:10:38,860 --> 03:10:40,060
and everybody will have a chance.

2338
03:10:40,100 --> 03:10:41,900
We'll start with you, Charles.

2339
03:10:41,900 --> 03:10:44,180
Major, there's one question I've been wanting to ask you.

2340
03:10:44,180 --> 03:10:49,180
I have an article from the Charleston Daily Mail

2341
03:10:49,300 --> 03:10:52,460
about a talk which you apparently gave in Charleston,

2342
03:10:52,460 --> 03:10:56,420
and I don't know if the gentleman is misquoting you or not,

2343
03:10:56,420 --> 03:10:59,180
but I'll read it and I would like to get your comments on this.

2344
03:10:59,180 --> 03:11:02,300
He said that you said that several projects

2345
03:11:02,300 --> 03:11:04,060
that would produce artificial gravity

2346
03:11:04,060 --> 03:11:06,020
permitting such flights, apparently referring

2347
03:11:06,020 --> 03:11:08,860
to the saucers, now are being conducted.

2348
03:11:08,900 --> 03:11:11,180
Some leading scientists dealing with the problem

2349
03:11:11,180 --> 03:11:14,340
have said that it is almost a reality now.

2350
03:11:14,340 --> 03:11:16,340
Was that pretty accurate?

2351
03:11:16,340 --> 03:11:18,500
That is not a verbatim quote.

2352
03:11:18,500 --> 03:11:23,100
What I said was, and I was talking a little fast, I guess,

2353
03:11:23,100 --> 03:11:26,460
it was a luncheon club, and how you talk,

2354
03:11:26,460 --> 03:11:28,420
try to get through in a half an hour

2355
03:11:28,420 --> 03:11:30,900
where everybody wants to run back to his business,

2356
03:11:30,900 --> 03:11:32,940
I said that in the United States now,

2357
03:11:32,940 --> 03:11:37,940
there were probably 20, at least a dozen projects

2358
03:11:38,780 --> 03:11:41,460
researching artificial gravity,

2359
03:11:41,460 --> 03:11:44,940
and that in one case, the Glenn Martin Project,

2360
03:11:44,940 --> 03:11:47,140
the Vice President in charge of advanced design,

2361
03:11:47,140 --> 03:11:49,700
Mr. G. S. Trimble, said some time ago

2362
03:11:49,700 --> 03:11:51,620
that we were on the threshold of a device

2363
03:11:51,620 --> 03:11:54,460
which would operate free of the Earth's gravity,

2364
03:11:54,460 --> 03:11:57,380
and it would operate at very high speeds,

2365
03:11:57,380 --> 03:11:59,280
up in the very high thousands.

2366
03:12:00,380 --> 03:12:03,820
I said that since then, no one has heard from Mr. Trimble,

2367
03:12:03,820 --> 03:12:06,540
and presumably he was shut up, he will not answer letters,

2368
03:12:06,540 --> 03:12:07,820
I know I've written him twice

2369
03:12:07,820 --> 03:12:10,620
to try to get further views on this,

2370
03:12:10,620 --> 03:12:13,300
and I did not say exactly what is there,

2371
03:12:13,300 --> 03:12:15,540
but I can see how he got that impression.

2372
03:12:15,540 --> 03:12:20,140
But it is a fact that apparently the Glenn Martin

2373
03:12:20,140 --> 03:12:23,220
aircraft company- Glenn Martin Convair has,

2374
03:12:23,220 --> 03:12:25,700
the impression you have is that they have,

2375
03:12:25,700 --> 03:12:27,380
probably in the testing stages right now,

2376
03:12:27,380 --> 03:12:28,980
an anti-gravity device.

2377
03:12:30,420 --> 03:12:33,380
I won't go that far because they won't admit it,

2378
03:12:33,380 --> 03:12:35,580
but they said that we are on the threshold.

2379
03:12:35,580 --> 03:12:39,900
I do know they're working hard on artificial gravity,

2380
03:12:39,900 --> 03:12:41,420
and they won't say a word about it.

2381
03:12:41,420 --> 03:12:43,700
It's a special project, and I think it's even

2382
03:12:43,700 --> 03:12:45,460
in a special building over there.

2383
03:12:45,460 --> 03:12:47,540
And several universities are on it.

2384
03:12:47,540 --> 03:12:50,740
They've gotten some European scientists over here

2385
03:12:50,740 --> 03:12:52,780
to work on the projects.

2386
03:12:52,780 --> 03:12:54,260
Just one last question on this,

2387
03:12:54,260 --> 03:12:57,620
and you may have no information on this at all.

2388
03:12:57,620 --> 03:13:00,220
In your conversations with these various people,

2389
03:13:00,220 --> 03:13:02,780
did they give you any indication of the line of attack

2390
03:13:02,780 --> 03:13:05,020
was an electrical field they were trying to produce,

2391
03:13:05,020 --> 03:13:08,020
or was it magnetic, or how were they going at it?

2392
03:13:08,020 --> 03:13:10,460
You can't get any details on that now.

2393
03:13:11,500 --> 03:13:13,300
Any really reliable ones.

2394
03:13:13,300 --> 03:13:15,900
The theory was, of course, it was based on Einstein's

2395
03:13:15,900 --> 03:13:19,460
unified field theory, that electricity,

2396
03:13:19,460 --> 03:13:22,340
magnetism, and gravity are all different manifestations

2397
03:13:22,340 --> 03:13:23,180
of the same thing.

2398
03:13:23,180 --> 03:13:26,180
And if you can control one or two,

2399
03:13:26,180 --> 03:13:27,980
then you can bury the other.

2400
03:13:27,980 --> 03:13:31,620
Or if you can bury one or two, you can control the other.

2401
03:13:31,620 --> 03:13:34,900
I tried to get something out of W.B. Smith, the Canadian.

2402
03:13:35,380 --> 03:13:37,220
Had the Canadian project.

2403
03:13:37,220 --> 03:13:39,620
He said, I'll be glad to write anything on any subject,

2404
03:13:39,620 --> 03:13:40,620
except that one.

2405
03:13:40,620 --> 03:13:42,660
You won't get any answers from anybody on this,

2406
03:13:42,660 --> 03:13:44,820
because it's under security everywhere.

2407
03:13:44,820 --> 03:13:49,420
Jules, referring to the investigators isn't a question,

2408
03:13:49,420 --> 03:13:53,100
but I certainly have been reading it myself,

2409
03:13:53,100 --> 03:13:54,660
and I certainly agree with John,

2410
03:13:54,660 --> 03:13:57,040
that it's an outstanding publication.

2411
03:13:58,300 --> 03:14:01,700
What do you think are the prospects for Niacab major,

2412
03:14:01,700 --> 03:14:03,940
and what can be done to improve

2413
03:14:03,940 --> 03:14:05,740
and enlarge the organization?

2414
03:14:07,140 --> 03:14:08,340
Well, that's quite a question,

2415
03:14:08,340 --> 03:14:11,140
and I'm going to give a frank answer.

2416
03:14:12,260 --> 03:14:16,300
When I went in there a year ago, January,

2417
03:14:16,300 --> 03:14:19,860
I was told that within a very short time,

2418
03:14:19,860 --> 03:14:22,220
there would be substantial sums of money coming in

2419
03:14:22,220 --> 03:14:23,980
to allow us to build it up.

2420
03:14:23,980 --> 03:14:26,180
We have an editor and editorial assistant,

2421
03:14:26,180 --> 03:14:28,540
and a promotion man, and public relations,

2422
03:14:28,540 --> 03:14:31,660
and all of which were badly needed.

2423
03:14:31,700 --> 03:14:35,740
The sum was estimated at around $50,000.

2424
03:14:35,740 --> 03:14:40,740
On the basis of this, I announced the Niacab magazine

2425
03:14:40,940 --> 03:14:43,460
and sent letters to all the people who'd read my books,

2426
03:14:43,460 --> 03:14:45,820
and we sent out quite a number of them,

2427
03:14:45,820 --> 03:14:50,340
and we had acceptances, and then after the acceptances,

2428
03:14:50,340 --> 03:14:52,860
the people who were going to donate the $50,000

2429
03:14:52,860 --> 03:14:56,300
in amounts of 5,000 a piece, in most cases,

2430
03:14:56,300 --> 03:14:58,660
each one began waiting for the other.

2431
03:14:58,660 --> 03:15:01,460
So as a result, here was Niacab,

2432
03:15:01,460 --> 03:15:03,860
committed to publishing a magazine,

2433
03:15:03,860 --> 03:15:07,740
which we put out to borrow a Winston Churchill.

2434
03:15:07,740 --> 03:15:09,900
Very blood-sweat and teared, I think it was right.

2435
03:15:09,900 --> 03:15:13,340
It was just about that and a little bit more,

2436
03:15:13,340 --> 03:15:15,220
because sometimes we share desperation,

2437
03:15:15,220 --> 03:15:17,580
but we did get the magazine out,

2438
03:15:17,580 --> 03:15:21,060
and it was written to be as new

2439
03:15:21,060 --> 03:15:22,980
and have as much new material as possible.

2440
03:15:22,980 --> 03:15:25,180
We alternated with bulletins,

2441
03:15:25,180 --> 03:15:29,540
and we have done our best to keep going,

2442
03:15:29,540 --> 03:15:32,460
and by the fact, we had such a small staff down there.

2443
03:15:32,460 --> 03:15:35,700
I personally have donated my time since last year.

2444
03:15:35,700 --> 03:15:37,340
I don't know how long I keep on doing that,

2445
03:15:37,340 --> 03:15:42,340
but Niacab, overnight, could become a very terrific success

2446
03:15:42,580 --> 03:15:47,060
if it just had a larger membership.

2447
03:15:47,060 --> 03:15:50,380
If it's all it needs is a larger membership,

2448
03:15:50,380 --> 03:15:51,580
and a few people, of course,

2449
03:15:51,580 --> 03:15:54,660
who have been able to have actually sent in donations,

2450
03:15:55,500 --> 03:15:56,580
besides their memberships,

2451
03:15:56,580 --> 03:15:59,060
but I am a very poor money ranger.

2452
03:15:59,060 --> 03:16:02,060
You have any idea, Major, pardon me,

2453
03:16:02,060 --> 03:16:05,900
about how many members it would be necessary

2454
03:16:05,900 --> 03:16:10,140
to have in order to have a successful organization?

2455
03:16:11,180 --> 03:16:13,140
Well, of course, it would be very wonderful

2456
03:16:13,140 --> 03:16:14,620
if we had 10,000 members,

2457
03:16:14,620 --> 03:16:17,620
but we can do much less than that.

2458
03:16:17,620 --> 03:16:20,700
If we had, in addition, we have now,

2459
03:16:20,700 --> 03:16:25,700
if we had 2,500 more members, or 3,000 the most,

2460
03:16:26,420 --> 03:16:28,860
our problems would be taken care of

2461
03:16:28,860 --> 03:16:30,940
because I would immediately get a hold of an editor.

2462
03:16:30,940 --> 03:16:34,180
In fact, I put my eyes on my friend John Duberry over here.

2463
03:16:34,180 --> 03:16:36,540
He used to be on True Magazine.

2464
03:16:36,540 --> 03:16:38,060
Or someone who knows the subject,

2465
03:16:38,060 --> 03:16:39,420
it could really take over,

2466
03:16:39,420 --> 03:16:41,820
because I've been trying to be director, editor,

2467
03:16:41,820 --> 03:16:42,940
public corrections man,

2468
03:16:42,940 --> 03:16:45,820
and not doing a good job at any of it.

2469
03:16:45,820 --> 03:16:46,660
Well, I wouldn't say that.

2470
03:16:46,660 --> 03:16:49,300
I think certainly the investigator

2471
03:16:49,300 --> 03:16:50,900
has been very well put out.

2472
03:16:50,900 --> 03:16:54,540
And one thing I've noticed that I admired very much,

2473
03:16:54,540 --> 03:16:58,020
certainly the nightcap has not put itself up

2474
03:16:58,020 --> 03:17:01,580
as a rival to any organization as I understand it,

2475
03:17:01,580 --> 03:17:04,460
but has expressed every desire to cooperate

2476
03:17:04,460 --> 03:17:07,300
and even gone so far as to recall one issue,

2477
03:17:07,300 --> 03:17:10,300
to list practically many, if not all,

2478
03:17:10,300 --> 03:17:12,860
and the other organizations in existence,

2479
03:17:12,860 --> 03:17:14,940
not only in this country, but in others,

2480
03:17:14,940 --> 03:17:18,100
and the publications that are put out.

2481
03:17:18,100 --> 03:17:20,340
Would you classify an eyecap more or less

2482
03:17:20,340 --> 03:17:22,900
as a mother organization?

2483
03:17:23,860 --> 03:17:27,740
No, we were afraid that there would be some jealousy

2484
03:17:27,740 --> 03:17:31,140
on the part of the existing organizations.

2485
03:17:31,140 --> 03:17:35,620
And at first, I think they felt too

2486
03:17:35,620 --> 03:17:37,220
that we were trying to take them over.

2487
03:17:37,220 --> 03:17:39,180
And since then, we've gotten along very well

2488
03:17:39,180 --> 03:17:40,020
with most of them.

2489
03:17:40,020 --> 03:17:43,460
Now, some of them don't care too much for our policy,

2490
03:17:43,460 --> 03:17:45,060
middle of the world policy, for instance,

2491
03:17:45,060 --> 03:17:47,380
but we're not having much trouble.

2492
03:17:47,380 --> 03:17:49,500
And most of all, we get information from them

2493
03:17:49,500 --> 03:17:52,020
and we'd be glad to cooperate even more with them,

2494
03:17:52,020 --> 03:17:52,940
as far as that's concerned.

2495
03:17:52,940 --> 03:17:54,100
And now you mentioned one thing,

2496
03:17:54,100 --> 03:17:56,740
I'm gonna toss this in on a cooperation.

2497
03:17:56,740 --> 03:17:59,420
We offered the Air Force cooperation, too.

2498
03:17:59,420 --> 03:18:01,820
Back in July, we offered them an eight point,

2499
03:18:01,820 --> 03:18:03,460
I think it was an eight point plan.

2500
03:18:04,460 --> 03:18:07,820
And someone said, which one of you gentlemen was,

2501
03:18:07,820 --> 03:18:09,420
would we consider negative evidence

2502
03:18:09,420 --> 03:18:11,540
as well as positive evidence?

2503
03:18:11,540 --> 03:18:12,740
We said to the Air Force,

2504
03:18:12,740 --> 03:18:14,500
you claim that you have explained

2505
03:18:14,500 --> 03:18:17,980
all but 3% of the sightings.

2506
03:18:17,980 --> 03:18:21,940
If you will let us have the 97% of the cases,

2507
03:18:21,940 --> 03:18:23,580
since there's no security involved

2508
03:18:23,580 --> 03:18:24,540
and they're all explained,

2509
03:18:24,540 --> 03:18:26,460
there's no reason why you shouldn't let us have them.

2510
03:18:26,460 --> 03:18:29,100
We will turn them over to our advisors and board of governors.

2511
03:18:29,100 --> 03:18:31,700
If we agree, you will fully explain them,

2512
03:18:31,700 --> 03:18:34,220
we will then state, the Air Force certainly has done

2513
03:18:34,220 --> 03:18:36,260
everything they claim, they have explained it.

2514
03:18:36,260 --> 03:18:39,780
97%, we will wipe the nightcap out and say,

2515
03:18:39,780 --> 03:18:42,220
let's just visit, let's all go home.

2516
03:18:42,220 --> 03:18:44,700
The Air Force said, we don't want any part of you.

2517
03:18:45,940 --> 03:18:47,420
They would not release anything.

2518
03:18:47,420 --> 03:18:49,420
They sent an official letter saying

2519
03:18:49,420 --> 03:18:52,780
it was rejecting our offer.

2520
03:18:52,780 --> 03:18:54,980
I have one last question, Major.

2521
03:18:54,980 --> 03:18:57,940
On the Armstrong Circle Theater,

2522
03:18:57,940 --> 03:19:00,780
I recall that it's a statistical breakdown

2523
03:19:00,780 --> 03:19:05,340
as to the number of unexplained and insufficient information.

2524
03:19:05,340 --> 03:19:06,940
I don't recall the breakdown,

2525
03:19:06,940 --> 03:19:09,700
it was 1.9 or something on unexplained

2526
03:19:09,700 --> 03:19:11,620
and 12 point insufficient.

2527
03:19:11,620 --> 03:19:15,540
In your opinion, should the 12 point of insufficient,

2528
03:19:15,540 --> 03:19:18,100
if that is the number, be classified

2529
03:19:18,100 --> 03:19:21,940
as insufficient information or unexplained?

2530
03:19:21,940 --> 03:19:24,540
Well, I would have to see each case to answer that,

2531
03:19:24,540 --> 03:19:25,660
but I'll tell you one thing,

2532
03:19:25,660 --> 03:19:27,820
that 1.9 is very misleading

2533
03:19:27,820 --> 03:19:31,420
because that is what they call the current situation.

2534
03:19:31,420 --> 03:19:34,460
Now, up to November 15th last year,

2535
03:19:34,460 --> 03:19:37,980
they were advertising that they had explained all the 3%,

2536
03:19:37,980 --> 03:19:41,380
then they jumped it suddenly to 1.9.

2537
03:19:41,380 --> 03:19:44,460
But what they don't let the public realize

2538
03:19:44,460 --> 03:19:47,580
is that they have a big backlog of unexplained cases

2539
03:19:47,580 --> 03:19:49,980
that goes back into their special report 14.

2540
03:19:49,980 --> 03:19:51,420
And there's a table right in the back

2541
03:19:51,420 --> 03:19:54,820
that shows 19.5% of this group unexplained,

2542
03:19:54,820 --> 03:19:58,780
which is roughly 650,

2543
03:19:58,780 --> 03:20:01,180
and the total today is well over 700,

2544
03:20:01,180 --> 03:20:02,900
about 750 unexplained cases

2545
03:20:02,900 --> 03:20:04,820
or more than 12% of the total.

2546
03:20:05,740 --> 03:20:06,780
Carl and Haythin?

2547
03:20:06,780 --> 03:20:10,540
Honest Project 14 published Major Kehoe.

2548
03:20:10,580 --> 03:20:13,900
It was dated May 5th, 1955,

2549
03:20:13,900 --> 03:20:16,940
and a friend of mine, pretty high up in the Pentagon,

2550
03:20:16,940 --> 03:20:18,940
told me at that time, he said,

2551
03:20:18,940 --> 03:20:20,940
they're going to let that go just in time

2552
03:20:20,940 --> 03:20:24,140
to knock off your book that's coming out in May.

2553
03:20:24,140 --> 03:20:25,540
I said, that's very interesting,

2554
03:20:25,540 --> 03:20:27,380
and Henry Holt will appreciate that

2555
03:20:27,380 --> 03:20:30,500
because the book is only about one third written,

2556
03:20:30,500 --> 03:20:32,340
and it won't be out for months.

2557
03:20:32,340 --> 03:20:34,180
And he called me up later and he said,

2558
03:20:34,180 --> 03:20:36,300
they've just found out your book's not coming out,

2559
03:20:36,300 --> 03:20:38,820
and they slept this secret label on this,

2560
03:20:38,820 --> 03:20:39,940
and they're gonna hold it.

2561
03:20:39,980 --> 03:20:42,020
So they held it until October,

2562
03:20:42,020 --> 03:20:45,460
at which time Len Stringfield, who put out Cryfo,

2563
03:20:45,460 --> 03:20:46,860
made a mistake and said,

2564
03:20:46,860 --> 03:20:49,980
and his book that I was coming out in November,

2565
03:20:49,980 --> 03:20:52,340
with the Franks' House of Conspiracy,

2566
03:20:52,340 --> 03:20:53,740
and that afternoon at five o'clock,

2567
03:20:53,740 --> 03:20:56,180
Captain Robert White got orders from top side,

2568
03:20:56,180 --> 03:20:58,340
let it go, so they let it go,

2569
03:20:58,340 --> 03:21:02,620
and the press men around the Pentagon didn't have any time

2570
03:21:02,620 --> 03:21:03,860
to get the answers to it.

2571
03:21:03,860 --> 03:21:05,540
They said, what's it all about?

2572
03:21:05,540 --> 03:21:07,020
That's the time of the day.

2573
03:21:07,020 --> 03:21:09,140
Hey, he said, here it is,

2574
03:21:09,140 --> 03:21:10,860
explained all but this percent,

2575
03:21:10,860 --> 03:21:12,100
and they ran the story,

2576
03:21:12,100 --> 03:21:14,060
ran all over the United States,

2577
03:21:14,060 --> 03:21:15,820
and then I booked in, come out till December,

2578
03:21:15,820 --> 03:21:17,380
but that time things had sort of cooled up.

2579
03:21:17,380 --> 03:21:19,140
Also, Ruppel's book was coming out,

2580
03:21:19,140 --> 03:21:22,220
so they figured they'd knock us both off at the same time.

2581
03:21:22,220 --> 03:21:25,180
And that is the most misleading document,

2582
03:21:25,180 --> 03:21:26,500
I think, that's ever been put out.

2583
03:21:26,500 --> 03:21:28,220
Now, I don't say they're lying to the people,

2584
03:21:28,220 --> 03:21:31,900
but it's either the most complete blunder of misstatements

2585
03:21:31,900 --> 03:21:33,740
that has ever been published,

2586
03:21:33,740 --> 03:21:36,660
that I've ever seen, or else it's a deliberate deception.

2587
03:21:37,660 --> 03:21:40,580
It's interesting to hear your description,

2588
03:21:40,580 --> 03:21:42,100
you don't say it's completely lying,

2589
03:21:42,100 --> 03:21:43,700
but it certainly is far from the truth,

2590
03:21:43,700 --> 03:21:45,900
so I think the listening audience

2591
03:21:45,900 --> 03:21:49,060
will probably make up its mind as to just what it is.

2592
03:21:49,060 --> 03:21:52,180
Major Kehoe, why doesn't the Air Force want an ICAP?

2593
03:21:54,500 --> 03:21:57,340
Well, they know very well that our intention

2594
03:21:57,340 --> 03:21:59,300
is to get everything out in the open

2595
03:21:59,300 --> 03:22:03,340
and to try to get the answers made available to the press.

2596
03:22:03,340 --> 03:22:06,460
In fact, one suggestion we had was

2597
03:22:06,460 --> 03:22:09,020
that they hold a huge press conference

2598
03:22:09,020 --> 03:22:12,220
and bring out everything and we will be over there

2599
03:22:12,220 --> 03:22:14,460
giving our side and asking questions too,

2600
03:22:14,460 --> 03:22:15,580
let's get it out in the open,

2601
03:22:15,580 --> 03:22:18,300
and that's one thing they will never agree to.

2602
03:22:18,300 --> 03:22:22,860
So there are too many questions that they couldn't answer.

2603
03:22:22,860 --> 03:22:26,500
And that's also why we want this Senate investigation.

2604
03:22:26,500 --> 03:22:27,620
Couldn't answer?

2605
03:22:27,620 --> 03:22:28,740
Or they don't want to answer.

2606
03:22:28,740 --> 03:22:30,820
Well, they could answer, some of them, most of them,

2607
03:22:30,820 --> 03:22:32,100
but I do think there's some things

2608
03:22:32,100 --> 03:22:34,140
that they don't understand even yet about these.

2609
03:22:34,180 --> 03:22:37,140
I'm not even sure they know the motives.

2610
03:22:37,140 --> 03:22:41,140
But I'm sure they know that these things operate in cycles

2611
03:22:41,140 --> 03:22:43,620
and they probably know the method of propulsion.

2612
03:22:43,620 --> 03:22:45,300
I think they do have a good idea

2613
03:22:45,300 --> 03:22:48,220
of the type of beings involved, but I'm not sure of that.

2614
03:22:49,820 --> 03:22:51,580
And they know very well that they're real

2615
03:22:51,580 --> 03:22:54,900
and that they're from some other part of the universe.

2616
03:22:54,900 --> 03:22:56,300
Would you repeat that again and over?

2617
03:22:56,300 --> 03:22:57,140
They know they're real.

2618
03:22:57,140 --> 03:22:58,140
Now, who knows?

2619
03:22:58,140 --> 03:22:58,980
The Air Force knows.

2620
03:22:58,980 --> 03:23:00,500
The Air Force knows what?

2621
03:23:00,500 --> 03:23:02,660
That these objects are real

2622
03:23:02,660 --> 03:23:06,900
and they're objects under intelligent control of beings

2623
03:23:06,900 --> 03:23:08,540
from some other part of the universe,

2624
03:23:08,540 --> 03:23:11,140
either our solar system or outside.

2625
03:23:11,140 --> 03:23:13,820
Albert Choppe stated that, didn't he, in 1953,

2626
03:23:13,820 --> 03:23:17,500
when he was, after he was head of the information,

2627
03:23:17,500 --> 03:23:18,980
did he ever go on at the Pentagon?

2628
03:23:18,980 --> 03:23:21,460
He didn't, no, he didn't say it that way.

2629
03:23:21,460 --> 03:23:25,020
What he said was that there was a secret report

2630
03:23:25,020 --> 03:23:27,300
which had been held up.

2631
03:23:27,300 --> 03:23:28,620
And I found out which one it was.

2632
03:23:28,620 --> 03:23:31,740
Later on, that was the foreign aid report.

2633
03:23:31,740 --> 03:23:34,780
And then the, but the 1948 report was the big one.

2634
03:23:34,780 --> 03:23:38,340
That was the one where ATIC declared these things

2635
03:23:38,340 --> 03:23:39,980
were interplanetary spaceships.

2636
03:23:40,980 --> 03:23:43,340
And even though all the Air Force doesn't accept it,

2637
03:23:43,340 --> 03:23:46,820
that was the top brain at that time in intelligence.

2638
03:23:46,820 --> 03:23:50,220
What do you feel is, this is the last question, Major Kehoe.

2639
03:23:50,220 --> 03:23:54,900
What do you feel is the best way how the American public

2640
03:23:54,900 --> 03:23:57,740
counteracting the suppression of news by the Air Force,

2641
03:23:57,740 --> 03:23:59,420
in fact, this out and out censorship

2642
03:23:59,460 --> 03:24:01,860
against which we fought World Wars I and II?

2643
03:24:03,700 --> 03:24:06,860
Well, I think, I still think that the only way you can do,

2644
03:24:06,860 --> 03:24:11,020
can help now is to write to your congressman,

2645
03:24:11,020 --> 03:24:15,260
write to your senators, and ask that they pass the word on

2646
03:24:15,260 --> 03:24:18,660
to the Senate committee and have open hearings.

2647
03:24:18,660 --> 03:24:22,060
And not just call the Air Force and night cap

2648
03:24:22,060 --> 03:24:23,580
and a few scientists and so forth,

2649
03:24:23,580 --> 03:24:28,100
but call at least 100 selected witnesses,

2650
03:24:28,140 --> 03:24:29,540
the best airline captains.

2651
03:24:29,540 --> 03:24:31,060
I mean, the ones that the most experienced

2652
03:24:31,060 --> 03:24:34,620
who've seen these top ranking officers in the armed forces,

2653
03:24:34,620 --> 03:24:36,420
the civil aeronautics tower operators

2654
03:24:36,420 --> 03:24:38,060
and radar operators who've seen these things,

2655
03:24:38,060 --> 03:24:40,860
the guided missile trackers, the people who photographed them.

2656
03:24:40,860 --> 03:24:43,260
Get them in there, it may take a month.

2657
03:24:43,260 --> 03:24:45,420
But believe me, when they get through with it,

2658
03:24:45,420 --> 03:24:48,420
with a thing like that, it'll be out in the open

2659
03:24:48,420 --> 03:24:50,060
and they can't ever close it up again.

2660
03:24:50,060 --> 03:24:51,660
To whom should they write in Congress?

2661
03:24:51,660 --> 03:24:53,900
You say that sound investigative committee.

2662
03:24:53,940 --> 03:24:58,940
Each citizen write to his own congressman and senators.

2663
03:24:58,940 --> 03:25:00,460
And that's it.

2664
03:25:00,460 --> 03:25:03,340
Thank you very, very much, Major Kehoe.

2665
03:25:03,340 --> 03:25:04,620
I certainly appreciate it.

2666
03:25:04,620 --> 03:25:06,100
And I know our listeners do,

2667
03:25:07,420 --> 03:25:10,700
to have the opportunity of hearing your opinions

2668
03:25:10,700 --> 03:25:14,340
on this subject and I sincerely hope that when

2669
03:25:14,340 --> 03:25:16,300
and if you do come back to New York

2670
03:25:16,300 --> 03:25:19,060
and if you can spare the time that you'll join us again.

2671
03:25:19,060 --> 03:25:20,020
Well, thank you very much.

2672
03:25:20,020 --> 03:25:22,820
It's been a great pleasure and I appreciate your cooperation.

2673
03:25:22,860 --> 03:25:24,220
Thank you, sir.

2674
03:25:24,220 --> 03:25:27,740
Of Hartford, Connecticut, suggest discount fact

2675
03:25:27,740 --> 03:25:30,180
which Wallace gave undue prominence

2676
03:25:30,180 --> 03:25:32,780
that Kehoe never saw flying saucer.

2677
03:25:33,860 --> 03:25:36,060
Criticism of men's out.

2678
03:25:36,060 --> 03:25:38,940
Astronomers want whole show,

2679
03:25:38,940 --> 03:25:43,940
but refuse interest themselves in subject UFOs.

2680
03:25:46,340 --> 03:25:48,420
Comment from one of the listeners.

2681
03:25:48,420 --> 03:25:51,940
Sean, is that the same LeBlanc, the violin maker?

2682
03:25:52,860 --> 03:25:53,700
Is that Ray LeBlanc?

2683
03:25:53,700 --> 03:25:54,860
I think it was, wasn't it?

2684
03:25:54,860 --> 03:25:57,300
Ray LeBlanc was the man who was the violin maker.

2685
03:25:57,300 --> 03:25:59,260
Yeah, that's right.

2686
03:25:59,260 --> 03:26:03,760
Oh, that's right, the man who was with us, yeah.

2687
03:26:04,580 --> 03:26:07,300
I'm interested in his first comment there,

2688
03:26:07,300 --> 03:26:09,260
that Wallace gave undue prominence

2689
03:26:09,260 --> 03:26:11,620
that Kehoe never saw flying saucer.

2690
03:26:11,620 --> 03:26:13,540
I don't agree with Ray.

2691
03:26:13,540 --> 03:26:14,780
It wasn't an all that happened.

2692
03:26:14,780 --> 03:26:17,300
It was towards the end of the show, Wallace said,

2693
03:26:17,300 --> 03:26:20,900
Mr. Kehoe, or Major Kehoe, have you ever seen a flying saucer?

2694
03:26:20,900 --> 03:26:23,940
And Major Kehoe said no, an amplified little,

2695
03:26:23,940 --> 03:26:25,100
that was all there was to it.

2696
03:26:25,100 --> 03:26:27,820
No, I disagree with Ray on that.

2697
03:26:27,820 --> 03:26:31,180
In other words, the efficacy or veracity, rather,

2698
03:26:31,180 --> 03:26:33,500
the whole flying saucer field, didn't hinge on it.

2699
03:26:33,500 --> 03:26:36,140
No, it didn't hang on whether or not Kehoe had seen that.

2700
03:26:36,140 --> 03:26:40,020
Well, of course, another thing in doing a show

2701
03:26:40,020 --> 03:26:41,700
like Mike Wallace does,

2702
03:26:41,700 --> 03:26:45,820
and he does a magnificent job on that interview show,

2703
03:26:45,820 --> 03:26:48,300
he has, he's timed, in other words,

2704
03:26:48,300 --> 03:26:49,700
he's paced all the way through.

2705
03:26:49,700 --> 03:26:52,820
And that's a wonderful closing question.

2706
03:26:52,820 --> 03:26:55,060
Have you ever seen a flying saucer?

2707
03:26:55,060 --> 03:26:56,940
Well, we can't do that here,

2708
03:26:56,940 --> 03:26:58,500
because we don't know what time

2709
03:26:58,500 --> 03:27:00,500
we're gonna break that particular interview,

2710
03:27:00,500 --> 03:27:02,340
and we're on for five and a half hours,

2711
03:27:02,340 --> 03:27:05,100
and we don't produce anything, it's just an ad-lib thing.

2712
03:27:05,100 --> 03:27:07,980
I'm gonna hold that to about five, 28 and a half.

2713
03:27:07,980 --> 03:27:09,060
Now let you have it.

2714
03:27:10,580 --> 03:27:13,100
You know, if you need tires and wanna throw your money away,

2715
03:27:13,100 --> 03:27:16,020
just wait until spring when tire prices are highest.

2716
03:27:16,020 --> 03:27:18,020
But if you wanna save money and lots of it,

2717
03:27:18,060 --> 03:27:21,060
take advantage of the tremendous preseason clearance sale

2718
03:27:21,060 --> 03:27:23,380
now at your General Tire dealer.

2719
03:27:23,380 --> 03:27:26,020
Get the tires you need at drastic savings

2720
03:27:26,020 --> 03:27:28,500
way below original prices.

2721
03:27:28,500 --> 03:27:30,140
Now Ford Chevrolet and Plymouth owners

2722
03:27:30,140 --> 03:27:35,140
save as much as $13.64 on 750 by 14 tires.

2723
03:27:36,140 --> 03:27:39,300
And you can save 40% on original equipment tires

2724
03:27:39,300 --> 03:27:43,220
that new car owners traded in for new general tires.

2725
03:27:43,220 --> 03:27:45,820
All famous brand names, all sizes,

2726
03:27:45,820 --> 03:27:49,420
and all yours at 40% off prices.

2727
03:27:49,420 --> 03:27:52,020
Easy terms, months to pay,

2728
03:27:52,020 --> 03:27:55,260
and tires installed now or held for you till later.

2729
03:27:55,260 --> 03:27:56,420
Now if you live in Manhattan,

2730
03:27:56,420 --> 03:27:59,060
see Ray Callahan or Pete McHugh

2731
03:27:59,060 --> 03:28:01,460
at the New York General Tire Company.

2732
03:28:03,340 --> 03:28:05,540
I'd like to take a moment to talk about

2733
03:28:05,540 --> 03:28:08,460
the Niagara Cyclone Massage Unit.

2734
03:28:08,460 --> 03:28:11,780
You know, that's the combination of heat and massage,

2735
03:28:11,780 --> 03:28:14,180
soothing control heat with gentle penetrating

2736
03:28:14,180 --> 03:28:16,260
cyclone massage action.

2737
03:28:16,260 --> 03:28:18,980
And this combination will certainly give you

2738
03:28:18,980 --> 03:28:22,100
a tremendous amount of relief if you suffer from pains

2739
03:28:22,100 --> 03:28:23,900
that are associated with arthritis,

2740
03:28:23,900 --> 03:28:25,620
birthsitis, and rheumatism.

2741
03:28:26,460 --> 03:28:29,260
It also stimulates blood circulation.

2742
03:28:29,260 --> 03:28:31,980
It's a passive form of exercise

2743
03:28:31,980 --> 03:28:34,260
for the person that has unwanted inches,

2744
03:28:34,260 --> 03:28:37,460
for the person that may be bedridden for a period of time.

2745
03:28:37,460 --> 03:28:40,140
If you need a passive form of exercise,

2746
03:28:40,140 --> 03:28:43,220
you can't get anything that'll compare

2747
03:28:43,220 --> 03:28:45,580
with the Niagara Cyclone Massage Unit.

2748
03:28:46,500 --> 03:28:49,220
And remember, it's not a vibrator.

2749
03:28:49,220 --> 03:28:52,780
See, a vibrator gives you hammer-like tissue-damaging strokes.

2750
03:28:52,780 --> 03:28:55,980
This unit is a cyclone massage action.

2751
03:28:55,980 --> 03:28:58,380
Now if you'll be kind enough to send me your name and address,

2752
03:28:58,380 --> 03:29:02,660
send it to Long John, station W-O-R, New York 18.

2753
03:29:02,660 --> 03:29:06,300
I'll send you a free brochure

2754
03:29:06,300 --> 03:29:08,340
that'll give you all of the facts

2755
03:29:08,340 --> 03:29:11,540
about the Niagara Cyclone Massage Pad.

2756
03:29:12,460 --> 03:29:15,020
And here's a message about Valentine's Ale.

2757
03:29:15,020 --> 03:29:17,420
Remember it's the best ale that your money can buy.

2758
03:29:17,420 --> 03:29:19,420
It's brewed with Brewer's Gold.

2759
03:29:21,820 --> 03:29:25,740
There's gold in California and in Alaska too,

2760
03:29:25,740 --> 03:29:27,700
but in the ale called Valentine's,

2761
03:29:27,700 --> 03:29:29,180
there's Brewer's Gold for you.

2762
03:29:29,180 --> 03:29:34,020
Enjoy that golden flavor, true ale flavor.

2763
03:29:34,020 --> 03:29:35,940
All that Valentine's.

2764
03:29:35,940 --> 03:29:40,940
It's the genuine Ale with Brewer's Gold.

2765
03:29:41,060 --> 03:29:43,940
Genuine friend, that is the key word.

2766
03:29:43,940 --> 03:29:47,060
It's the genuine golden flavor of Valentine's Ale

2767
03:29:47,060 --> 03:29:50,780
that goes right along with today's American taste.

2768
03:29:50,780 --> 03:29:52,660
All that Valentine's.

2769
03:29:52,660 --> 03:29:57,660
It's the genuine Ale with Brewer's Gold.

2770
03:29:57,860 --> 03:30:00,140
Brewer's Gold is a special strain of hops,

2771
03:30:00,140 --> 03:30:03,140
a rare strain with delicate, delicious flavor.

2772
03:30:03,140 --> 03:30:06,580
Only Valentine's special brewing methods can bring out.

2773
03:30:06,580 --> 03:30:09,300
Enjoy the genuine, it's the trend friend.

2774
03:30:09,340 --> 03:30:14,180
Enjoy Valentine's Ale, the ale with Brewer's Gold.

2775
03:30:14,180 --> 03:30:16,060
All that Valentine's.

2776
03:30:16,060 --> 03:30:21,060
It's the genuine Ale with Brewer's Gold.

2777
03:30:21,940 --> 03:30:25,580
We're talking now with the Cortland Hastings,

2778
03:30:25,580 --> 03:30:29,460
Bent Isquith, Charles Liedem and Dave Fields.

2779
03:30:29,460 --> 03:30:31,620
I think we'll take a couple of phone calls.

2780
03:30:31,620 --> 03:30:34,180
Now I would appreciate it very, very much

2781
03:30:35,020 --> 03:30:38,740
if you would be as brief as possible

2782
03:30:38,740 --> 03:30:40,780
because we'd like to get in a few phone calls

2783
03:30:40,780 --> 03:30:45,500
maybe for the next, oh, 15 or 17 minutes.

2784
03:30:45,500 --> 03:30:49,000
And if you're brief, we can get more calls in.

2785
03:30:49,000 --> 03:30:50,780
It's as simple as that.

2786
03:30:50,780 --> 03:30:53,020
Are you ready, Dr. Nielsen?

2787
03:30:53,980 --> 03:30:55,180
How are you, Dr. Bailey?

2788
03:30:55,180 --> 03:30:56,860
Everybody's a doctor.

2789
03:30:56,860 --> 03:30:58,580
No patience, all doctors.

2790
03:30:58,580 --> 03:31:01,420
Right, Dr. Nielsen.

2791
03:31:01,420 --> 03:31:02,460
Let's have it.

2792
03:31:02,460 --> 03:31:03,420
Hello.

2793
03:31:03,420 --> 03:31:04,420
Hello, Long John.

2794
03:31:04,420 --> 03:31:05,660
Yes, sir.

2795
03:31:05,660 --> 03:31:08,340
It's a pleasure to get you on the phone

2796
03:31:08,340 --> 03:31:12,660
because I called up several times tonight.

2797
03:31:13,940 --> 03:31:17,940
I called up before the broadcast.

2798
03:31:17,940 --> 03:31:19,860
Yes, well I never take calls before the broadcast.

2799
03:31:19,860 --> 03:31:24,220
No, I merely called your engineering department

2800
03:31:24,220 --> 03:31:29,220
to ask them to kindly monitor your voice,

2801
03:31:31,500 --> 03:31:34,700
monitor major keyhole's voice better than it was

2802
03:31:34,700 --> 03:31:36,980
on the television show.

2803
03:31:37,820 --> 03:31:39,940
Well, I heard it on television too.

2804
03:31:39,940 --> 03:31:42,420
I thought they did a good job on it.

2805
03:31:42,420 --> 03:31:44,060
Do you think it could be something

2806
03:31:44,060 --> 03:31:46,420
that you're set to, it was not adjusted properly?

2807
03:31:46,420 --> 03:31:47,820
Well, that's possible.

2808
03:31:47,820 --> 03:31:49,100
Yeah, because I heard it too.

2809
03:31:49,100 --> 03:31:51,940
I heard the telecast.

2810
03:31:51,940 --> 03:31:56,260
I didn't hear it very, I thought to,

2811
03:31:56,260 --> 03:31:58,140
like Wallace, folks are good,

2812
03:31:58,140 --> 03:32:02,020
but I didn't think to major keyhole's voice better.

2813
03:32:02,020 --> 03:32:05,220
However, there's one question I want to ask you.

2814
03:32:05,220 --> 03:32:06,260
Right.

2815
03:32:06,340 --> 03:32:09,540
This has nothing to do with tonight's broadcast.

2816
03:32:09,540 --> 03:32:10,380
Yes.

2817
03:32:11,740 --> 03:32:13,060
A few nights ago,

2818
03:32:14,460 --> 03:32:16,420
wait a minute, I better shut this radio.

2819
03:32:16,420 --> 03:32:18,260
Oh, you got your radio on, it's confusing.

2820
03:32:18,260 --> 03:32:20,340
Go ahead, turn it off, sir.

2821
03:32:20,340 --> 03:32:21,780
Let me remind all of our listeners,

2822
03:32:21,780 --> 03:32:22,900
if we talk to you on the phone,

2823
03:32:22,900 --> 03:32:25,100
automatically turn your radios off

2824
03:32:25,100 --> 03:32:26,900
because otherwise you'll be very confused

2825
03:32:26,900 --> 03:32:28,820
because you'll hear yourself talking eight seconds

2826
03:32:28,820 --> 03:32:29,660
after you've said something.

2827
03:32:29,660 --> 03:32:34,660
So that's an echo there and it sounds too much like

2828
03:32:34,700 --> 03:32:36,260
we're talking about important.

2829
03:32:39,380 --> 03:32:44,380
As I said, I merely called up fairly at your night

2830
03:32:46,020 --> 03:32:48,940
and the operator told me to call back

2831
03:32:48,940 --> 03:32:52,860
about 10 minutes before the show went on

2832
03:32:52,860 --> 03:32:57,860
and I talked to an engineer in your department.

2833
03:32:59,660 --> 03:33:01,780
Yes, I know you just mentioned that, yes.

2834
03:33:01,780 --> 03:33:06,780
I asked him if he would try to dip major keyhole's voice

2835
03:33:06,780 --> 03:33:09,660
much better than it was before the TV.

2836
03:33:09,660 --> 03:33:11,580
What was your point, sir, that you wanted to make?

2837
03:33:11,580 --> 03:33:13,100
You said you wanted to talk about something

2838
03:33:13,100 --> 03:33:14,460
about another show.

2839
03:33:14,460 --> 03:33:15,300
Yes.

2840
03:33:15,300 --> 03:33:17,100
I wanted to get a number of calls in, sir.

2841
03:33:17,100 --> 03:33:22,100
Did you at roughly cut off

2842
03:33:27,340 --> 03:33:29,340
your show the other night

2843
03:33:30,260 --> 03:33:33,460
when the hypnotists were on?

2844
03:33:33,460 --> 03:33:36,660
Did I abruptly cut off my show and the hypnotists were on?

2845
03:33:36,660 --> 03:33:37,500
Yes.

2846
03:33:39,380 --> 03:33:42,500
This is not last night of tonight.

2847
03:33:43,940 --> 03:33:46,820
Well, I frankly don't know, sir.

2848
03:33:46,820 --> 03:33:49,260
I don't remember anybody cutting anything off.

2849
03:33:49,260 --> 03:33:54,260
Well, your show went quite a long, quite a ways along.

2850
03:33:54,940 --> 03:33:55,780
Yes.

2851
03:33:56,660 --> 03:33:58,020
Well, I really, I...

2852
03:33:58,020 --> 03:34:03,020
You cut it off and you continue with music for quite a while.

2853
03:34:03,020 --> 03:34:04,580
Yes, well, that's quite possible.

2854
03:34:04,580 --> 03:34:05,420
We do that.

2855
03:34:05,420 --> 03:34:06,780
There was quite a hassle there,

2856
03:34:06,780 --> 03:34:10,660
which I enjoyed very much.

2857
03:34:10,660 --> 03:34:14,060
Well, there's sometimes, as they say in my work,

2858
03:34:14,060 --> 03:34:16,820
I put in about 75 to 80 hours a week here

2859
03:34:16,820 --> 03:34:19,780
and sometimes I forget what happened the night before

2860
03:34:19,780 --> 03:34:22,340
and I honestly don't remember the particular...

2861
03:34:23,340 --> 03:34:25,780
We'll take that thing that's current.

2862
03:34:25,780 --> 03:34:26,980
One gentleman,

2863
03:34:26,980 --> 03:34:31,980
and with questioning,

2864
03:34:31,980 --> 03:34:34,980
I think you wanted your favorite camera.

2865
03:34:34,980 --> 03:34:35,980
Yes.

2866
03:34:35,980 --> 03:34:37,580
Jewel to what she's made.

2867
03:34:37,580 --> 03:34:38,900
Jewel to be Saint Germain?

2868
03:34:38,900 --> 03:34:39,740
That's right.

2869
03:34:39,740 --> 03:34:41,580
Well, I really don't know, sir.

2870
03:34:41,580 --> 03:34:43,820
What I'm trying to do, I'm trying to get

2871
03:34:43,820 --> 03:34:45,700
some comments on this morning show.

2872
03:34:45,700 --> 03:34:48,500
Well, this morning show was excellent.

2873
03:34:48,500 --> 03:34:50,300
Fine, I'm glad you enjoyed it, sir.

2874
03:34:50,340 --> 03:34:58,340
I did question the fact that Major T. Hall

2875
03:34:58,340 --> 03:35:05,340
on his TV show didn't have,

2876
03:35:05,340 --> 03:35:13,340
according to the facts that were pitched at him,

2877
03:35:13,340 --> 03:35:15,340
let's put it that way,

2878
03:35:15,340 --> 03:35:17,340
and they were pitched at him.

2879
03:35:17,380 --> 03:35:19,380
Well, all right, sir.

2880
03:35:19,380 --> 03:35:21,380
Thank you very much for your comment

2881
03:35:21,380 --> 03:35:23,380
and thank you for calling me.

2882
03:35:23,380 --> 03:35:25,380
Good night, sir.

2883
03:35:25,380 --> 03:35:29,380
Well, that gentleman evidently listened to Major Kehoe

2884
03:35:29,380 --> 03:35:32,380
on that telecast and also heard the comments

2885
03:35:32,380 --> 03:35:34,380
that the major made here.

2886
03:35:34,380 --> 03:35:36,380
Let me see, is that...

2887
03:35:36,380 --> 03:35:38,380
Yes, here's another call coming through.

2888
03:35:38,380 --> 03:35:40,380
Hi there, this is Long John.

2889
03:35:40,380 --> 03:35:42,380
Hello, Long John.

2890
03:35:42,380 --> 03:35:44,380
Yes, sir.

2891
03:35:44,420 --> 03:35:46,420
I'm going to talk a little bit about

2892
03:35:46,420 --> 03:35:48,420
the Air Force and Major Kehoe.

2893
03:35:48,420 --> 03:35:50,420
All right, sir.

2894
03:35:50,420 --> 03:35:52,420
A few years ago, about two and a half to three years ago,

2895
03:35:52,420 --> 03:35:56,420
a couple of scientists had a theory

2896
03:35:56,420 --> 03:36:02,420
about the generation of dwarf stars,

2897
03:36:02,420 --> 03:36:05,420
you know, how stars are formed.

2898
03:36:05,420 --> 03:36:07,420
Yes, go ahead.

2899
03:36:07,420 --> 03:36:12,420
And it was their theory that these high temperatures

2900
03:36:12,460 --> 03:36:15,460
helped to develop stars

2901
03:36:15,460 --> 03:36:20,460
by causing hydrogen to go into a reaction.

2902
03:36:20,460 --> 03:36:24,460
And I was thinking

2903
03:36:24,460 --> 03:36:28,460
that if the Air Force wanted to cover this up,

2904
03:36:28,460 --> 03:36:34,460
you know, the testing of the H&E bombs,

2905
03:36:34,460 --> 03:36:37,460
that it would be a good way

2906
03:36:37,460 --> 03:36:40,460
to throw people off the scent

2907
03:36:40,500 --> 03:36:49,500
by denying Major Kehoe's ideas,

2908
03:36:49,500 --> 03:36:53,500
but giving the idea that there might be something to it.

2909
03:36:53,500 --> 03:36:55,500
I see what you mean.

2910
03:36:55,500 --> 03:36:58,500
In other words, use this as somewhat of a subterfuge.

2911
03:36:58,500 --> 03:36:59,500
That's right.

2912
03:36:59,500 --> 03:37:01,500
Well, that's an interesting comment,

2913
03:37:01,500 --> 03:37:03,500
and unfortunately the major is not here,

2914
03:37:03,500 --> 03:37:05,500
so he certainly can't comment on it,

2915
03:37:05,500 --> 03:37:07,500
but we appreciate your interest in the program.

2916
03:37:07,500 --> 03:37:08,500
Did you enjoy it tonight, sir?

2917
03:37:08,500 --> 03:37:09,500
Yes, sir.

2918
03:37:09,540 --> 03:37:10,540
Thank you very much for calling.

2919
03:37:10,540 --> 03:37:11,540
I appreciate your interest.

2920
03:37:11,540 --> 03:37:12,540
All right, call again.

2921
03:37:12,540 --> 03:37:13,540
Will you please?

2922
03:37:13,540 --> 03:37:15,540
Thank you.

2923
03:37:15,540 --> 03:37:18,540
Do you want to make a comment on that statement, Court?

2924
03:37:18,540 --> 03:37:19,540
Yes, I did.

2925
03:37:19,540 --> 03:37:22,540
A very nice gentleman mentioned

2926
03:37:22,540 --> 03:37:26,540
the Air Force wanting to throw the American people off the scent.

2927
03:37:26,540 --> 03:37:32,540
I think this has become a somewhat accepted attitude,

2928
03:37:32,540 --> 03:37:34,540
a somewhat accepted situation

2929
03:37:34,540 --> 03:37:36,540
on the part of the American people.

2930
03:37:36,580 --> 03:37:39,580
We seem to forget, as American citizens,

2931
03:37:39,580 --> 03:37:42,580
that this is a democracy that the Air Force does not have

2932
03:37:42,580 --> 03:37:47,580
and should not have any control over our civilian life,

2933
03:37:47,580 --> 03:37:49,580
and therefore there shouldn't be no case

2934
03:37:49,580 --> 03:37:52,580
of anybody wanting to throw anybody off the scent.

2935
03:37:52,580 --> 03:37:54,580
The exact opposite should be the case.

2936
03:37:54,580 --> 03:37:56,580
They should want information

2937
03:37:56,580 --> 03:37:58,580
to be made the property of the American people

2938
03:37:58,580 --> 03:38:02,580
and the American people to be able to make its own decision.

2939
03:38:02,580 --> 03:38:04,580
Gordon Dean, who was former chairman

2940
03:38:04,620 --> 03:38:06,620
of the Atomic Energy Commission, said,

2941
03:38:06,620 --> 03:38:09,620
every time America decides to keep something secret,

2942
03:38:09,620 --> 03:38:12,620
we're running the risk of showing our own progress

2943
03:38:12,620 --> 03:38:15,620
by severely narrowing the range of skills

2944
03:38:15,620 --> 03:38:18,620
and experience that can be brought to bear

2945
03:38:18,620 --> 03:38:20,620
on the problem involved.

2946
03:38:20,620 --> 03:38:25,620
During the war, there was an IFF,

2947
03:38:25,620 --> 03:38:30,620
which was an instrument for identification of friend and foe.

2948
03:38:30,620 --> 03:38:32,620
That's where the IFF came from.

2949
03:38:32,660 --> 03:38:36,660
And it provided for passing an electronic password

2950
03:38:36,660 --> 03:38:39,660
from a speeding plane to a radar set.

2951
03:38:39,660 --> 03:38:42,660
Well, this was really a hot device,

2952
03:38:42,660 --> 03:38:45,660
and the security boys knew it was such a hot device

2953
03:38:45,660 --> 03:38:48,660
that they really took it under their wraps.

2954
03:38:48,660 --> 03:38:52,660
Now, what happened was that the radar sets

2955
03:38:52,660 --> 03:38:54,660
were made at an astounding rate,

2956
03:38:54,660 --> 03:38:56,660
whereas the IFF equipment,

2957
03:38:56,660 --> 03:38:59,660
which should have, of all things, been given preference,

2958
03:38:59,700 --> 03:39:01,700
lagged very far behind,

2959
03:39:01,700 --> 03:39:06,700
and finally, some IFF equipment was captured by the Germans,

2960
03:39:06,700 --> 03:39:08,700
and then there was no further cause for secrecy.

2961
03:39:08,700 --> 03:39:12,700
But simply showing that by holding something secret,

2962
03:39:12,700 --> 03:39:15,700
it delays the production,

2963
03:39:15,700 --> 03:39:21,700
or what I want to call a say, the emergence of the instrument.

2964
03:39:21,700 --> 03:39:28,700
And democracy, although it's a sometimes inefficient,

2965
03:39:28,740 --> 03:39:31,740
rather long drawn out, sometimes irritating process,

2966
03:39:31,740 --> 03:39:34,740
is extremely necessary.

2967
03:39:34,740 --> 03:39:38,740
It's the only wise system as we have found in this country.

2968
03:39:38,740 --> 03:39:42,740
M. Stanley Livingston, who is an MIT physicist,

2969
03:39:42,740 --> 03:39:46,740
says our true security lies in our ability to out-produce

2970
03:39:46,740 --> 03:39:49,740
and out-develop any potential enemy.

2971
03:39:49,740 --> 03:39:53,740
And this can be measured in the number of trained minds.

2972
03:39:53,740 --> 03:39:57,740
We need fewer controls and hampering safeguards,

2973
03:39:57,780 --> 03:40:01,780
and more freedom of discussion between experts in all fields.

2974
03:40:01,780 --> 03:40:05,780
Achievement is more important than secrecy.

2975
03:40:05,780 --> 03:40:07,780
Mr. Quist.

2976
03:40:07,780 --> 03:40:12,780
I would like to say a hearty amen to what Court has said.

2977
03:40:12,780 --> 03:40:16,780
Now, I would just like to briefly bring up the recent disclosure,

2978
03:40:16,780 --> 03:40:18,780
I think, a few weeks ago,

2979
03:40:18,780 --> 03:40:21,780
that a type of bow and arrow

2980
03:40:21,780 --> 03:40:25,780
that the Army had been considering for use in combat

2981
03:40:25,820 --> 03:40:30,820
had been classified as secret and vital to the national defense,

2982
03:40:30,820 --> 03:40:33,820
and only recently had it been declassified.

2983
03:40:33,820 --> 03:40:37,820
Now, I submit that this automatically put all the Indians

2984
03:40:37,820 --> 03:40:42,820
in North America under your threat of probably being jailed,

2985
03:40:42,820 --> 03:40:44,820
because they were going, I mean, for years,

2986
03:40:44,820 --> 03:40:48,820
they'd been going around with these highly classified secret war weapons.

2987
03:40:48,820 --> 03:40:53,820
I mean, security and classification can reach ridiculous aspects

2988
03:40:53,860 --> 03:40:57,860
on one point, and it also can be used as one of the most handy

2989
03:40:57,860 --> 03:41:01,860
bureaucratic methods of covering up mistakes.

2990
03:41:01,860 --> 03:41:04,860
Any further comments, gentlemen?

2991
03:41:04,860 --> 03:41:06,860
Did you want to say something, Dave?

2992
03:41:06,860 --> 03:41:08,860
No, I didn't.

2993
03:41:08,860 --> 03:41:11,860
Let's take another call. Hello.

2994
03:41:11,860 --> 03:41:14,860
Well, I want to say first, I think the program tonight was wonderful.

2995
03:41:14,860 --> 03:41:16,860
I'm glad you enjoyed it.

2996
03:41:16,860 --> 03:41:21,860
And, uh, if you're listening to all of us talk about the sightings,

2997
03:41:21,900 --> 03:41:24,900
I think for the past year, I've been listening.

2998
03:41:24,900 --> 03:41:25,900
Yes.

2999
03:41:25,900 --> 03:41:29,900
Probably charged with them could describe this better than I can,

3000
03:41:29,900 --> 03:41:33,900
but we never really get down to any basic facts.

3001
03:41:33,900 --> 03:41:38,900
Nothing is ever presented that you can get your teeth into.

3002
03:41:38,900 --> 03:41:42,900
I mean, there's no, uh, nobody can say, well, here's this,

3003
03:41:42,900 --> 03:41:45,900
and that's the way it is.

3004
03:41:45,900 --> 03:41:48,900
We see a lot of things flying around and everybody's season,

3005
03:41:48,940 --> 03:41:50,940
but what's the result?

3006
03:41:50,940 --> 03:41:53,940
I mean, we could talk about it for 100 years,

3007
03:41:53,940 --> 03:41:56,940
and nothing would ever come of it.

3008
03:41:56,940 --> 03:41:58,940
You're sure of this?

3009
03:41:58,940 --> 03:42:00,940
Well, uh, I mean, you're making the statement.

3010
03:42:00,940 --> 03:42:02,940
I'm not. I'm merely asking you again.

3011
03:42:02,940 --> 03:42:04,940
Are you sure of the statement that you've just made?

3012
03:42:04,940 --> 03:42:07,940
Well, has anyone ever come out with any real facts?

3013
03:42:07,940 --> 03:42:09,940
Well, may I repeat your statement again?

3014
03:42:09,940 --> 03:42:12,940
You just made a statement to me that we can talk about this

3015
03:42:12,940 --> 03:42:15,940
for the next 100 years, and nothing will come out of it.

3016
03:42:15,940 --> 03:42:17,940
At the present rate, yes.

3017
03:42:17,980 --> 03:42:19,980
I mean, if I see this and you see that

3018
03:42:19,980 --> 03:42:22,980
and the other guy sees the other thing,

3019
03:42:22,980 --> 03:42:25,980
at the end of 100 years, everybody has seen everything

3020
03:42:25,980 --> 03:42:29,980
and nobody has, uh, got anything to show for it.

3021
03:42:29,980 --> 03:42:33,980
All these guys are seeing these things and talking about it.

3022
03:42:33,980 --> 03:42:37,980
I mean, what would you suggest for them to do?

3023
03:42:37,980 --> 03:42:39,980
What would be your plan of operation?

3024
03:42:39,980 --> 03:42:42,980
Supposing that somebody called you up and said,

3025
03:42:42,980 --> 03:42:46,980
uh, Mr. Jones, we'd like to have you, uh, be director at nightcap.

3026
03:42:47,020 --> 03:42:49,020
What would you do, sir?

3027
03:42:49,020 --> 03:42:51,020
Well, it would be very interesting.

3028
03:42:51,020 --> 03:42:53,020
What do you mean would be interesting? The phone call?

3029
03:42:53,020 --> 03:42:57,020
No, to be, to be director at nightcap.

3030
03:42:57,020 --> 03:42:59,020
All right, so, we both agree on that.

3031
03:42:59,020 --> 03:43:02,020
It would be interesting. But what would you do?

3032
03:43:02,020 --> 03:43:04,020
I do what they are doing.

3033
03:43:04,020 --> 03:43:06,020
But in the end, what do we got?

3034
03:43:06,020 --> 03:43:08,020
That's what I'm getting at.

3035
03:43:08,020 --> 03:43:11,020
I mean, what is the end result of looking at all these things?

3036
03:43:11,020 --> 03:43:13,020
Well, if they can't prove anything.

3037
03:43:13,020 --> 03:43:16,020
How do you know that they can't prove anything in the future?

3038
03:43:16,060 --> 03:43:18,060
I don't mean today.

3039
03:43:18,060 --> 03:43:20,060
For the past ten years, they haven't proven a thing.

3040
03:43:20,060 --> 03:43:24,060
In other words, you mean that if we investigate something...

3041
03:43:24,060 --> 03:43:26,060
No, no, it's true.

3042
03:43:26,060 --> 03:43:28,060
Go ahead.

3043
03:43:28,060 --> 03:43:30,060
If we look at these things flying in the air...

3044
03:43:30,060 --> 03:43:32,060
Right.

3045
03:43:32,060 --> 03:43:34,060
For a hundred years...

3046
03:43:34,060 --> 03:43:36,060
No, let's not go a hundred years. Let's take ten years first.

3047
03:43:36,060 --> 03:43:38,060
You just made the statement ten years.

3048
03:43:38,060 --> 03:43:40,060
Ten years. What do we know?

3049
03:43:40,060 --> 03:43:42,060
What do we know?

3050
03:43:42,060 --> 03:43:44,060
Well, I don't know anything.

3051
03:43:44,100 --> 03:43:46,100
What do we know ten years ago?

3052
03:43:46,100 --> 03:43:48,100
No, no, no, wait a minute.

3053
03:43:48,100 --> 03:43:50,100
Wait a minute, my friend. Now, this is what you may know.

3054
03:43:50,100 --> 03:43:52,100
Only what you knew ten years ago.

3055
03:43:52,100 --> 03:43:56,100
But the government, according to the Air Force,

3056
03:43:56,100 --> 03:43:59,100
according to Major Kehoe this morning, knows a lot more.

3057
03:43:59,100 --> 03:44:01,100
They're not talking.

3058
03:44:01,100 --> 03:44:03,100
And let me ask you this.

3059
03:44:03,100 --> 03:44:05,100
In other words, if we experiment with something,

3060
03:44:05,100 --> 03:44:08,100
we'll say for two years, five or ten years.

3061
03:44:08,100 --> 03:44:11,100
And I don't know what to what extent you would say

3062
03:44:11,100 --> 03:44:13,100
would be a limitation to the amount of years

3063
03:44:13,140 --> 03:44:15,140
that we should conduct experimentation.

3064
03:44:15,140 --> 03:44:17,140
But if we were guided by you,

3065
03:44:17,140 --> 03:44:21,140
we would have never gotten a cure for our polio.

3066
03:44:21,140 --> 03:44:23,140
Well, that is different.

3067
03:44:23,140 --> 03:44:25,140
Why is it different?

3068
03:44:25,140 --> 03:44:27,140
Because you're investigating something

3069
03:44:27,140 --> 03:44:29,140
and you have it in front of you.

3070
03:44:29,140 --> 03:44:31,140
What do you have in front of you?

3071
03:44:31,140 --> 03:44:33,140
The cure?

3072
03:44:33,140 --> 03:44:35,140
No, the germ.

3073
03:44:35,140 --> 03:44:37,140
You're investigating...

3074
03:44:37,140 --> 03:44:39,140
All right, now, I'm glad you made that point.

3075
03:44:39,140 --> 03:44:42,140
But isn't it true, according to what Major Kehoe said

3076
03:44:42,180 --> 03:44:45,180
this morning, there are thousands,

3077
03:44:45,180 --> 03:44:47,180
I don't know if it's thousands,

3078
03:44:47,180 --> 03:44:49,180
I'll just use the figure, thousands,

3079
03:44:49,180 --> 03:44:51,180
of people who have seen these things.

3080
03:44:51,180 --> 03:44:55,180
And now, we're getting all of these sightings together,

3081
03:44:55,180 --> 03:44:58,180
not we, but NICAP and the government.

3082
03:44:58,180 --> 03:45:02,180
And eventually, they hope to be able to determine

3083
03:45:02,180 --> 03:45:06,180
whether or not these UFOs are coming from other planets

3084
03:45:06,180 --> 03:45:08,180
or whether they're man-made,

3085
03:45:08,180 --> 03:45:11,180
that is, Earth-made UFOs,

3086
03:45:11,220 --> 03:45:14,220
or whether there's just nothing at all.

3087
03:45:14,220 --> 03:45:16,220
Well, that's true.

3088
03:45:16,220 --> 03:45:18,220
Let's say they are from another planet.

3089
03:45:18,220 --> 03:45:20,220
Go ahead.

3090
03:45:20,220 --> 03:45:22,220
So we look at it for another 10 years, so what?

3091
03:45:22,220 --> 03:45:24,220
Well, now, let me ask you this.

3092
03:45:24,220 --> 03:45:26,220
No, wait.

3093
03:45:26,220 --> 03:45:28,220
Wait, no, you're going too fast.

3094
03:45:28,220 --> 03:45:30,220
Let me ask you this.

3095
03:45:30,220 --> 03:45:32,220
Supposing that a group of strange-looking,

3096
03:45:32,220 --> 03:45:34,220
that's unusual, and strange-looking people

3097
03:45:34,220 --> 03:45:36,220
started to appear

3098
03:45:36,220 --> 03:45:38,220
in various parts of the United States.

3099
03:45:38,220 --> 03:45:40,220
Well, now we got some.

3100
03:45:40,260 --> 03:45:42,260
All right, would you just look at them?

3101
03:45:42,260 --> 03:45:44,260
No.

3102
03:45:44,260 --> 03:45:46,260
You'd want to investigate, right?

3103
03:45:46,260 --> 03:45:48,260
Yes.

3104
03:45:48,260 --> 03:45:50,260
All right, well, then, by the same token,

3105
03:45:50,260 --> 03:45:52,260
because you can't reach up

3106
03:45:52,260 --> 03:45:54,260
and take one of these things out of the sky,

3107
03:45:54,260 --> 03:45:56,260
the only thing you can do

3108
03:45:56,260 --> 03:45:58,260
is to observe for a period of time.

3109
03:45:58,260 --> 03:46:00,260
Yeah, I say it's interesting to observe,

3110
03:46:00,260 --> 03:46:02,260
but I say we're not getting anywhere.

3111
03:46:02,260 --> 03:46:04,260
What, Earth,

3112
03:46:04,260 --> 03:46:06,260
some time ago in your program

3113
03:46:06,260 --> 03:46:08,260
you had a man and a woman there,

3114
03:46:08,300 --> 03:46:10,300
and they claimed that

3115
03:46:10,300 --> 03:46:12,300
some sources were captured.

3116
03:46:12,300 --> 03:46:14,300
Can you just do them?

3117
03:46:14,300 --> 03:46:16,300
Yes, I do, sir.

3118
03:46:16,300 --> 03:46:19,300
Well, I mean, what's the story behind that?

3119
03:46:19,300 --> 03:46:21,300
Well, and then you're not listening tonight?

3120
03:46:21,300 --> 03:46:24,300
Maybe Kehoe told us that there's a lot of things

3121
03:46:24,300 --> 03:46:26,300
that we haven't been told.

3122
03:46:26,300 --> 03:46:28,300
In other words, the government

3123
03:46:28,300 --> 03:46:30,300
really has something concrete.

3124
03:46:30,300 --> 03:46:32,300
This is what has been implied.

3125
03:46:32,300 --> 03:46:34,300
This is not my statement, sir.

3126
03:46:34,300 --> 03:46:36,300
I would not make that statement.

3127
03:46:36,340 --> 03:46:38,340
I'm not in a position to.

3128
03:46:38,340 --> 03:46:40,340
I don't know that much about the subject.

3129
03:46:40,340 --> 03:46:42,340
That's why I was sorry that

3130
03:46:42,340 --> 03:46:44,340
your phone calls weren't available

3131
03:46:44,340 --> 03:46:46,340
when the major was there.

3132
03:46:46,340 --> 03:46:48,340
I wouldn't like to hear...

3133
03:46:48,340 --> 03:46:50,340
What would be your question, sir,

3134
03:46:50,340 --> 03:46:52,340
that you would like to ask the major?

3135
03:46:52,340 --> 03:46:54,340
To see if he has any definite proof

3136
03:46:54,340 --> 03:46:56,340
that government has

3137
03:46:56,340 --> 03:46:58,340
evidence of, you know,

3138
03:46:58,340 --> 03:47:00,340
these things in the next phase.

3139
03:47:00,340 --> 03:47:02,340
Were you listening to this program

3140
03:47:02,340 --> 03:47:04,340
or were you listening to Big Joe this morning?

3141
03:47:04,380 --> 03:47:06,380
No, he's a truth.

3142
03:47:06,380 --> 03:47:08,380
No, because he made that statement.

3143
03:47:08,380 --> 03:47:10,380
Well, he told me he mentioned

3144
03:47:10,380 --> 03:47:12,380
metal falling out of place.

3145
03:47:12,380 --> 03:47:14,380
No, and he also told you

3146
03:47:14,380 --> 03:47:16,380
he made this statement right on the air here.

3147
03:47:16,380 --> 03:47:18,380
That the government has

3148
03:47:18,380 --> 03:47:20,380
documents.

3149
03:47:20,380 --> 03:47:22,380
They have proof that

3150
03:47:22,380 --> 03:47:24,380
would lead them to believe

3151
03:47:24,380 --> 03:47:26,380
that these saucers are coming

3152
03:47:26,380 --> 03:47:28,380
that are hovering around.

3153
03:47:28,380 --> 03:47:30,380
Some of them may be landing

3154
03:47:30,380 --> 03:47:32,380
and they're coming here from other planets.

3155
03:47:32,420 --> 03:47:34,420
What statement would you want the man to make?

3156
03:47:34,420 --> 03:47:36,420
What do you mean, uh...

3157
03:47:36,420 --> 03:47:38,420
What is the proof?

3158
03:47:38,420 --> 03:47:40,420
That's the strongest statement I would go...

3159
03:47:40,420 --> 03:47:42,420
Well, you couldn't get that from him.

3160
03:47:42,420 --> 03:47:44,420
He hasn't got the proof to argue.

3161
03:47:44,420 --> 03:47:46,420
He has to make a statement like that.

3162
03:47:46,420 --> 03:47:48,420
Well, I can only say this.

3163
03:47:48,420 --> 03:47:50,420
I'm sorry he isn't here.

3164
03:47:50,420 --> 03:47:52,420
I'm sorry, too.

3165
03:47:52,420 --> 03:47:54,420
Okay, thanks very much for calling, though.

3166
03:47:54,420 --> 03:47:56,420
Oh, thank you very much.

3167
03:47:56,420 --> 03:47:58,420
We have a telegram here from

3168
03:47:58,420 --> 03:48:00,420
Don Griffin of Quartzville, New Jersey.

3169
03:48:00,460 --> 03:48:02,460
Let this wire be my applause

3170
03:48:02,460 --> 03:48:04,460
tonight's program extremely interesting.

3171
03:48:04,460 --> 03:48:06,460
Well, I'm sorry that Major Keyhoe

3172
03:48:06,460 --> 03:48:08,460
is not with us to

3173
03:48:08,460 --> 03:48:10,460
hear Don Griffin's

3174
03:48:10,460 --> 03:48:12,460
comments on the program,

3175
03:48:12,460 --> 03:48:14,460
and we appreciate your interest, Mr. Griffin.

3176
03:48:14,460 --> 03:48:16,460
Quartz?

3177
03:48:16,460 --> 03:48:18,460
I wonder what this man

3178
03:48:18,460 --> 03:48:20,460
would require his proof.

3179
03:48:20,460 --> 03:48:22,460
I guess probably the capture

3180
03:48:22,460 --> 03:48:24,460
of a flying saucer

3181
03:48:24,460 --> 03:48:26,460
and demonstration.

3182
03:48:26,460 --> 03:48:28,460
You know, it's the same type of thing

3183
03:48:28,500 --> 03:48:30,500
until during the Middle Ages

3184
03:48:30,500 --> 03:48:32,500
and later where the peasants

3185
03:48:32,500 --> 03:48:34,500
were reporting meteors

3186
03:48:34,500 --> 03:48:36,500
by the scores, by the hundreds,

3187
03:48:36,500 --> 03:48:38,500
eventually by the thousands.

3188
03:48:38,500 --> 03:48:40,500
But they couldn't prove it.

3189
03:48:40,500 --> 03:48:42,500
And the

3190
03:48:42,500 --> 03:48:44,500
non-believers and the lords and so on

3191
03:48:44,500 --> 03:48:46,500
would frequently

3192
03:48:46,500 --> 03:48:48,500
put these people to death

3193
03:48:48,500 --> 03:48:50,500
or invest

3194
03:48:50,500 --> 03:48:52,500
some kind of punishment

3195
03:48:52,500 --> 03:48:54,500
upon their persons.

3196
03:48:54,500 --> 03:48:56,500
However, it didn't change the fact.

3197
03:48:56,540 --> 03:48:58,540
Now we come up to the day

3198
03:48:58,540 --> 03:49:00,540
where this man, along with

3199
03:49:00,540 --> 03:49:02,540
probably the vast majority

3200
03:49:02,540 --> 03:49:04,540
of American people,

3201
03:49:04,540 --> 03:49:06,540
are deluded by these absolutely false

3202
03:49:06,540 --> 03:49:08,540
reports being issued

3203
03:49:08,540 --> 03:49:10,540
by the Air Force.

3204
03:49:10,540 --> 03:49:12,540
I say to the American people, wake up,

3205
03:49:12,540 --> 03:49:14,540
it's high time we came

3206
03:49:14,540 --> 03:49:16,540
to the realization

3207
03:49:16,540 --> 03:49:18,540
that there is another side

3208
03:49:18,540 --> 03:49:20,540
to this flying saucer story.

3209
03:49:20,540 --> 03:49:22,540
We can't deny the testimony

3210
03:49:22,540 --> 03:49:24,540
of individuals.

3211
03:49:24,580 --> 03:49:26,580
This which furnishes our evidence

3212
03:49:26,580 --> 03:49:28,580
in courts.

3213
03:49:28,580 --> 03:49:30,580
And we can't deny then the testimony

3214
03:49:30,580 --> 03:49:32,580
of our very qualified pilots,

3215
03:49:32,580 --> 03:49:34,580
some scientists,

3216
03:49:34,580 --> 03:49:36,580
many good, solid

3217
03:49:36,580 --> 03:49:38,580
American citizens,

3218
03:49:38,580 --> 03:49:40,580
numbering in the thousands

3219
03:49:40,580 --> 03:49:42,580
who have seen these.

3220
03:49:42,580 --> 03:49:44,580
And we've got to accept

3221
03:49:44,580 --> 03:49:46,580
something as proof,

3222
03:49:46,580 --> 03:49:48,580
otherwise there would be no proof.

3223
03:49:48,580 --> 03:49:50,580
I can recall here probably

3224
03:49:50,580 --> 03:49:52,580
a couple of hundred years ago,

3225
03:49:52,620 --> 03:49:54,620
we were not found at that time,

3226
03:49:54,620 --> 03:49:56,620
but reading history, if we can believe history,

3227
03:49:56,620 --> 03:49:58,620
now of course we haven't any proof,

3228
03:49:58,620 --> 03:50:00,620
because you can't reproduce it.

3229
03:50:00,620 --> 03:50:02,620
But nevertheless, we accept these things

3230
03:50:02,620 --> 03:50:04,620
as facts, and enough has been

3231
03:50:04,620 --> 03:50:06,620
written about them by

3232
03:50:06,620 --> 03:50:08,620
I don't know how to call it, historians.

3233
03:50:08,620 --> 03:50:10,620
The

3234
03:50:10,620 --> 03:50:12,620
theory

3235
03:50:12,620 --> 03:50:14,620
of Phlogiston,

3236
03:50:14,620 --> 03:50:16,620
which I was

3237
03:50:16,620 --> 03:50:18,620
considered for about two or three

3238
03:50:18,620 --> 03:50:20,620
centuries, to be absolutely accurate.

3239
03:50:20,660 --> 03:50:22,660
But as science developed,

3240
03:50:22,660 --> 03:50:24,660
it was found to be very

3241
03:50:24,660 --> 03:50:26,660
inaccurate by Lavoisier.

3242
03:50:26,660 --> 03:50:28,660
And finally, Priestley, its greatest opponent,

3243
03:50:28,660 --> 03:50:30,660
Priestley himself, a tremendous scientist,

3244
03:50:30,660 --> 03:50:32,660
had to

3245
03:50:32,660 --> 03:50:34,660
he never did admit it, actually,

3246
03:50:34,660 --> 03:50:36,660
he died before admitting it.

3247
03:50:36,660 --> 03:50:38,660
But that didn't change the fact any.

3248
03:50:40,660 --> 03:50:42,660
Court, two points.

3249
03:50:42,660 --> 03:50:44,660
First of all, you say,

3250
03:50:44,660 --> 03:50:46,660
and

3251
03:50:46,660 --> 03:50:48,660
in this tone I can see you

3252
03:50:48,700 --> 03:50:50,700
at the Battle of Valley Ford,

3253
03:50:50,700 --> 03:50:52,700
with your long rifle and your bare feet,

3254
03:50:52,700 --> 03:50:54,700
that you cannot deny the testimony

3255
03:50:54,700 --> 03:50:56,700
of individuals, because it's used

3256
03:50:56,700 --> 03:50:58,700
as in court,

3257
03:50:58,700 --> 03:51:00,700
COURT.

3258
03:51:00,700 --> 03:51:02,700
And I will,

3259
03:51:02,700 --> 03:51:04,700
I thought it was COURT, court.

3260
03:51:04,700 --> 03:51:06,700
I don't even get it.

3261
03:51:06,700 --> 03:51:08,700
No, it's actually COURT.

3262
03:51:08,700 --> 03:51:10,700
And I

3263
03:51:10,700 --> 03:51:12,700
must point out to you this,

3264
03:51:12,700 --> 03:51:14,700
that in court,

3265
03:51:14,700 --> 03:51:16,700
this is a little awkward here,

3266
03:51:16,740 --> 03:51:18,740
that in the illegal halls,

3267
03:51:18,740 --> 03:51:20,740
that

3268
03:51:20,740 --> 03:51:22,740
there are testimony on both sides of the case,

3269
03:51:22,740 --> 03:51:24,740
and half of it is generally denied

3270
03:51:24,740 --> 03:51:26,740
by the judge or the jury.

3271
03:51:26,740 --> 03:51:28,740
So I wouldn't go around saying

3272
03:51:28,740 --> 03:51:30,740
you can't deny the testimony of individuals,

3273
03:51:30,740 --> 03:51:32,740
because it appears in the halls of justice

3274
03:51:32,740 --> 03:51:34,740
to avoid the confusing word.

3275
03:51:34,740 --> 03:51:36,740
Well, you can't deny it if enough people

3276
03:51:36,740 --> 03:51:38,740
come out with the same, same trial.

3277
03:51:38,740 --> 03:51:40,740
At least it's generally accepted as admissible.

3278
03:51:40,740 --> 03:51:42,740
It's admissible, but not necessarily

3279
03:51:42,740 --> 03:51:44,740
meaningful

3280
03:51:44,780 --> 03:51:46,780
if the testimony of half of the people

3281
03:51:46,780 --> 03:51:48,780
turns out to be wrong, because the verdict goes

3282
03:51:48,780 --> 03:51:50,780
one way or the other, and the witnesses

3283
03:51:50,780 --> 03:51:52,780
on one side are sometimes

3284
03:51:52,780 --> 03:51:54,780
pretty nearly as numerous as the witnesses

3285
03:51:54,780 --> 03:51:56,780
on the other side. Well, what you've done

3286
03:51:56,780 --> 03:51:58,780
is propose a hypothetical case where

3287
03:51:58,780 --> 03:52:00,780
it's 50-50, of course you can't believe anything there.

3288
03:52:00,780 --> 03:52:02,780
But when you get a whole

3289
03:52:02,780 --> 03:52:04,780
tremendous number of witnesses on one side,

3290
03:52:04,780 --> 03:52:06,780
they're not on the other, except by supposition.

3291
03:52:06,780 --> 03:52:08,780
Well, let me say that

3292
03:52:08,780 --> 03:52:10,780
I would suspect that the majority

3293
03:52:10,780 --> 03:52:12,780
of the witnesses whom we might call

3294
03:52:12,820 --> 03:52:14,820
on the existence of flying saucers

3295
03:52:14,820 --> 03:52:16,820
in a random sample

3296
03:52:16,820 --> 03:52:18,820
of the population of this country right now,

3297
03:52:18,820 --> 03:52:20,820
we would find the majority

3298
03:52:20,820 --> 03:52:22,820
on the non-saucer side.

3299
03:52:22,820 --> 03:52:24,820
So don't talk the majority

3300
03:52:24,820 --> 03:52:26,820
to me, Court, because

3301
03:52:26,820 --> 03:52:28,820
the majority is on this side.

3302
03:52:28,820 --> 03:52:30,820
And the second point, you can answer both of these,

3303
03:52:30,820 --> 03:52:32,820
is that

3304
03:52:32,820 --> 03:52:34,820
how, without any reference

3305
03:52:34,820 --> 03:52:36,820
to the truth or falsity

3306
03:52:36,820 --> 03:52:38,820
of flying saucers,

3307
03:52:38,820 --> 03:52:40,820
it happens, and I'm not

3308
03:52:40,860 --> 03:52:42,860
including flying saucers

3309
03:52:42,860 --> 03:52:44,860
as a crank or crack

3310
03:52:44,860 --> 03:52:46,860
science, pseudoscience or what have you.

3311
03:52:46,860 --> 03:52:48,860
But every time

3312
03:52:48,860 --> 03:52:50,860
somebody comes up with some

3313
03:52:50,860 --> 03:52:52,860
weird, wild and wonderful idea

3314
03:52:52,860 --> 03:52:54,860
that maybe that the earth is hollow

3315
03:52:54,860 --> 03:52:56,860
or that the stars are painted

3316
03:52:56,860 --> 03:52:58,860
on a large blue-gauze thing

3317
03:52:58,860 --> 03:53:00,860
instead of the sky or that...

3318
03:53:00,860 --> 03:53:02,860
Aren't they?

3319
03:53:02,860 --> 03:53:04,860
Well, I don't know, John, I'm not sure.

3320
03:53:04,860 --> 03:53:06,860
I just give this as a theory.

3321
03:53:06,860 --> 03:53:08,860
That was Dr. Neville.

3322
03:53:08,900 --> 03:53:10,900
Or that you can stand in the box

3323
03:53:10,900 --> 03:53:12,900
and get strange things

3324
03:53:12,900 --> 03:53:14,900
coming out of the atmosphere

3325
03:53:14,900 --> 03:53:16,900
which will cure all your ills

3326
03:53:16,900 --> 03:53:18,900
or something if you don't catch cold.

3327
03:53:18,900 --> 03:53:20,900
Every one of these people

3328
03:53:20,900 --> 03:53:22,900
quotes...

3329
03:53:22,900 --> 03:53:24,900
Well, generally it's Galileo.

3330
03:53:24,900 --> 03:53:26,900
They quote or Copernicus or something.

3331
03:53:26,900 --> 03:53:28,900
They point to one or two mistakes

3332
03:53:28,900 --> 03:53:30,900
or mis-imperhingions

3333
03:53:30,900 --> 03:53:32,900
in the early days of science

3334
03:53:32,900 --> 03:53:34,900
and says, look, they persecuted Galileo.

3335
03:53:34,900 --> 03:53:36,900
They're persecuting me.

3336
03:53:36,940 --> 03:53:38,940
So I must be right.

3337
03:53:38,940 --> 03:53:40,940
And I just can't see this

3338
03:53:40,940 --> 03:53:42,940
as giving any possible support

3339
03:53:42,940 --> 03:53:44,940
to the flying saucer theory

3340
03:53:44,940 --> 03:53:46,940
just because of the fact that

3341
03:53:46,940 --> 03:53:48,940
science, or the body of men

3342
03:53:48,940 --> 03:53:50,940
who compose what is generally thought of as science,

3343
03:53:50,940 --> 03:53:52,940
have been mistaken in the past.

3344
03:53:52,940 --> 03:53:54,940
And I'm sorry if I lump you

3345
03:53:54,940 --> 03:53:56,940
with organomy and hollow earths and so forth.

3346
03:53:56,940 --> 03:53:58,940
Oh, I don't mind.

3347
03:53:58,940 --> 03:54:01,940
Those things are purely suppositional.

3348
03:54:01,940 --> 03:54:03,940
But when you have hundreds

3349
03:54:03,940 --> 03:54:05,940
and thousands of people

3350
03:54:05,980 --> 03:54:07,980
who are not suppositional,

3351
03:54:07,980 --> 03:54:09,980
which look like objects

3352
03:54:09,980 --> 03:54:11,980
and appear

3353
03:54:11,980 --> 03:54:13,980
or they don't feel like it

3354
03:54:13,980 --> 03:54:15,980
because I don't believe anybody's actually felt them.

3355
03:54:15,980 --> 03:54:17,980
Some of the contact people, of course,

3356
03:54:17,980 --> 03:54:19,980
who've been aboard,

3357
03:54:19,980 --> 03:54:21,980
have claimed to have felt them.

3358
03:54:21,980 --> 03:54:23,980
But in general, the 99, 9, 10%

3359
03:54:23,980 --> 03:54:25,980
of the sightings are

3360
03:54:25,980 --> 03:54:27,980
as if, well, if we were driving

3361
03:54:27,980 --> 03:54:29,980
along a highway in an ordinate building

3362
03:54:29,980 --> 03:54:31,980
and we saw another one, say a quarter of a mile away

3363
03:54:31,980 --> 03:54:33,980
or 300 feet away or a mile away,

3364
03:54:34,020 --> 03:54:36,020
we'd say that was a car.

3365
03:54:36,020 --> 03:54:38,020
We couldn't prove it, but we'd say that

3366
03:54:38,020 --> 03:54:40,020
and nobody would dispute it.

3367
03:54:40,020 --> 03:54:42,020
Matt, are you through with your point?

3368
03:54:42,020 --> 03:54:44,020
Sure. I'm sorry.

3369
03:54:44,020 --> 03:54:46,020
I don't want to go into a long story about this.

3370
03:54:46,020 --> 03:54:48,020
We hope that we're going to have

3371
03:54:48,020 --> 03:54:50,020
the pleasure of having

3372
03:54:50,020 --> 03:54:52,020
Mr. Schmidt

3373
03:54:52,020 --> 03:54:54,020
on the program.

3374
03:54:54,020 --> 03:54:56,020
Ryan Holt Schmidt,

3375
03:54:56,020 --> 03:54:58,020
the gentleman who was out in

3376
03:54:58,020 --> 03:55:00,020
Karni, Nebraska,

3377
03:55:00,020 --> 03:55:02,020
who claimed that he

3378
03:55:02,060 --> 03:55:04,060
was in a flying saucer

3379
03:55:04,060 --> 03:55:06,060
and we don't want any

3380
03:55:06,060 --> 03:55:08,060
stories behind or anything,

3381
03:55:08,060 --> 03:55:10,060
but he's going to be on the program.

3382
03:55:10,060 --> 03:55:12,060
But I'd just like to ask you this, Court.

3383
03:55:12,060 --> 03:55:14,060
I have in front of me, unfortunately,

3384
03:55:14,060 --> 03:55:16,060
the listeners cannot see this.

3385
03:55:16,060 --> 03:55:18,060
I have an artist's drawing

3386
03:55:18,060 --> 03:55:20,060
of the spaceship as seen

3387
03:55:20,060 --> 03:55:22,060
and described by Ryan Holt, O. Schmidt.

3388
03:55:22,060 --> 03:55:24,060
What I want to know is, Court,

3389
03:55:24,060 --> 03:55:26,060
in a period of some 15

3390
03:55:26,060 --> 03:55:28,060
or 20 minutes

3391
03:55:28,060 --> 03:55:30,060
that Mr. Schmidt claimed

3392
03:55:30,100 --> 03:55:32,100
that he was in the saucer

3393
03:55:32,100 --> 03:55:34,100
and spoke to the two gentlemen,

3394
03:55:34,100 --> 03:55:36,100
I think they spoke a high German,

3395
03:55:36,100 --> 03:55:38,100
if I'm not...

3396
03:55:38,100 --> 03:55:40,100
Hochdeutsch.

3397
03:55:40,100 --> 03:55:42,100
Hochdeutsch.

3398
03:55:42,100 --> 03:55:44,100
Your German is terrible, then.

3399
03:55:44,100 --> 03:55:46,100
I learned it in the public schools

3400
03:55:46,100 --> 03:55:48,100
and made it good.

3401
03:55:48,100 --> 03:55:50,100
That's why.

3402
03:55:50,100 --> 03:55:52,100
The most exciting thing that ever happened

3403
03:55:52,100 --> 03:55:54,100
to Mr. Schmidt, I think he'll agree with me.

3404
03:55:54,100 --> 03:55:56,100
And he has

3405
03:55:56,100 --> 03:55:58,100
such a detailed description,

3406
03:55:58,140 --> 03:56:00,140
in other words, a detailed description

3407
03:56:00,140 --> 03:56:02,140
that he was able to give to the artist,

3408
03:56:02,140 --> 03:56:04,140
such as

3409
03:56:04,140 --> 03:56:06,140
the saucer had retractable

3410
03:56:06,140 --> 03:56:08,140
landing pads

3411
03:56:08,140 --> 03:56:10,140
one foot in diameter.

3412
03:56:10,140 --> 03:56:12,140
The end of it

3413
03:56:12,140 --> 03:56:14,140
was 14

3414
03:56:14,140 --> 03:56:16,140
feet high.

3415
03:56:16,140 --> 03:56:18,140
They had a

3416
03:56:18,140 --> 03:56:20,140
10 bladed fan.

3417
03:56:20,140 --> 03:56:22,140
Now, I used to do

3418
03:56:22,140 --> 03:56:24,140
a show in Studio 8.

3419
03:56:24,140 --> 03:56:26,140
We had a

3420
03:56:26,180 --> 03:56:28,180
big fan in there.

3421
03:56:28,180 --> 03:56:30,180
And I must have watched that fan

3422
03:56:30,180 --> 03:56:32,180
for 400 hours.

3423
03:56:32,180 --> 03:56:34,180
And believe me,

3424
03:56:34,180 --> 03:56:36,180
I have no idea whether it was a

3425
03:56:36,180 --> 03:56:38,180
two bladed fan,

3426
03:56:38,180 --> 03:56:40,180
four, six, or ten bladed fan.

3427
03:56:40,180 --> 03:56:42,180
Wait, John, that was

3428
03:56:42,180 --> 03:56:44,180
a three bladed fan, 30 inch in diameter.

3429
03:56:44,180 --> 03:56:46,180
31 inch.

3430
03:56:46,180 --> 03:56:48,180
Well, on my eyes, maybe off an inch.

3431
03:56:48,180 --> 03:56:50,180
In other words,

3432
03:56:50,180 --> 03:56:52,180
in a ship capable of growing

3433
03:56:52,180 --> 03:56:54,180
18,000 miles an hour and doing

3434
03:56:54,220 --> 03:56:56,220
eight-angle turns and fantastic

3435
03:56:56,220 --> 03:56:58,220
aerial acrobatics, why do they

3436
03:56:58,220 --> 03:57:00,220
need a 10 bladed fan,

3437
03:57:00,220 --> 03:57:02,220
presumably the cool air in there?

3438
03:57:02,220 --> 03:57:04,220
I don't understand. This is a very

3439
03:57:04,220 --> 03:57:06,220
propulsion method. This is very fun.

3440
03:57:06,220 --> 03:57:08,220
I have noticed what's amazing to me.

3441
03:57:08,220 --> 03:57:10,220
I notice he also describes an

3442
03:57:10,220 --> 03:57:12,220
invisible escalator there, which is interesting.

3443
03:57:12,220 --> 03:57:14,220
What would an invisible escalator do?

3444
03:57:14,220 --> 03:57:16,220
Running the length of the ship.

3445
03:57:16,220 --> 03:57:18,220
In other words, when you're on it,

3446
03:57:18,220 --> 03:57:20,220
you don't even know you're being escalated.

3447
03:57:20,220 --> 03:57:22,220
I don't know.

3448
03:57:22,260 --> 03:57:24,260
One of the most fascinating things about this diagram

3449
03:57:24,260 --> 03:57:26,260
is he shows

3450
03:57:26,260 --> 03:57:28,260
what's this interesting thing back here,

3451
03:57:28,260 --> 03:57:30,260
operators, TV, and desk control

3452
03:57:30,260 --> 03:57:32,260
and instrument panels and columns

3453
03:57:32,260 --> 03:57:34,260
of liquid and sliding doors

3454
03:57:34,260 --> 03:57:36,260
and 10 bladed fans, but there ain't

3455
03:57:36,260 --> 03:57:38,260
no place for the people to live.

3456
03:57:38,260 --> 03:57:40,260
I don't know what they do when they're not working on the instrument panels.

3457
03:57:40,260 --> 03:57:42,260
He wasn't allowed to miss the yellow,

3458
03:57:42,260 --> 03:57:44,260
the galleys, or nothing.

3459
03:57:44,260 --> 03:57:46,260
In the end, there's a question mark.

3460
03:57:46,260 --> 03:57:48,260
He wasn't allowed to go there.

3461
03:57:48,260 --> 03:57:50,260
I see. He wasn't allowed to go

3462
03:57:50,300 --> 03:57:52,300
to the end of the ship.

3463
03:57:52,300 --> 03:57:54,300
Are you glad to Schmidt, sir?

3464
03:57:54,300 --> 03:57:56,300
John, with everything.

3465
03:57:56,300 --> 03:57:58,300
I will listen to everything.

3466
03:57:58,300 --> 03:58:00,300
That was a real loaded question.

3467
03:58:00,300 --> 03:58:02,300
Let's go with a little.

3468
03:58:02,300 --> 03:58:04,300
We're going to have Mr. Schmidt on.

3469
03:58:04,300 --> 03:58:06,300
When is he going to be on?

3470
03:58:06,300 --> 03:58:08,300
Do you know, John?

3471
03:58:08,300 --> 03:58:10,300
I'm not allowed to divulge that.

3472
03:58:10,300 --> 03:58:12,300
But it is going to be quite a story.

3473
03:58:12,300 --> 03:58:14,300
And Mark Cobra is going to be on soon.

3474
03:58:14,300 --> 03:58:16,300
Fun.

3475
03:58:16,300 --> 03:58:18,300
The transmedium will be with us.

3476
03:58:18,340 --> 03:58:21,340
And I know that Ferb Bailey,

3477
03:58:21,340 --> 03:58:24,340
the author who wrote that new book

3478
03:58:24,340 --> 03:58:26,340
being published by Putman

3479
03:58:26,340 --> 03:58:29,340
in Be Released in a Few Days,

3480
03:58:29,340 --> 03:58:31,340
what is the title of that again?

3481
03:58:33,340 --> 03:58:35,340
Is this the one on Carbazan, John?

3482
03:58:35,340 --> 03:58:37,340
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

3483
03:58:37,340 --> 03:58:39,340
Carbazan, there's one that's Carbazan.

3484
03:58:39,340 --> 03:58:42,340
One called Carbazan Miracle Cure or something like that.

3485
03:58:42,340 --> 03:58:44,340
No? Just Carbazan?

3486
03:58:44,340 --> 03:58:46,340
That's Carbazan, I mean.

3487
03:58:46,380 --> 03:58:47,380
And that's another...

3488
03:58:47,380 --> 03:58:49,380
It has nothing to do with Schmidt or flying saucers,

3489
03:58:49,380 --> 03:58:51,380
but we'll be talking about that.

3490
03:58:51,380 --> 03:58:54,380
And we've got so many things that I cannot give dates out

3491
03:58:54,380 --> 03:58:56,380
at the moment, because frankly, I don't know.

3492
03:58:56,380 --> 03:58:59,380
All I do know is that according to Wayne Aho,

3493
03:58:59,380 --> 03:59:03,380
it is his statement on this little pamphlet,

3494
03:59:03,380 --> 03:59:06,380
all roads lead to

3495
03:59:06,380 --> 03:59:09,380
Kearney, the center of the USA.

3496
03:59:09,380 --> 03:59:11,380
And I think that's where Vantassel,

3497
03:59:11,380 --> 03:59:13,380
when he becomes president, will

3498
03:59:13,380 --> 03:59:15,380
possibly make the...

3499
03:59:15,420 --> 03:59:17,420
He's going to move the national capital to Kearney, Nebraska.

3500
03:59:17,420 --> 03:59:19,420
He's going to do it to...

3501
03:59:19,420 --> 03:59:21,420
I mean, this sincerely, you know.

3502
03:59:21,420 --> 03:59:24,420
I was standing up there on that stand that he built,

3503
03:59:24,420 --> 03:59:26,420
you know, in front of the rock court.

3504
03:59:26,420 --> 03:59:28,420
I remember you.

3505
03:59:28,420 --> 03:59:30,420
And he said to me up there, he said,

3506
03:59:30,420 --> 03:59:32,420
John, when I become president,

3507
03:59:32,420 --> 03:59:34,420
I'm going to move the capital

3508
03:59:34,420 --> 03:59:37,420
to Giant Rock Airport, right in the middle of the desert,

3509
03:59:37,420 --> 03:59:39,420
17 miles from Yucca Valley, California.

3510
03:59:39,420 --> 03:59:41,420
Then I'll move to Toronto.

3511
03:59:41,420 --> 03:59:43,420
And let's say one thing, though,

3512
03:59:43,460 --> 03:59:45,460
this is a real nice guy.

3513
03:59:45,460 --> 03:59:47,460
I mean, I may not buy his story,

3514
03:59:47,460 --> 03:59:49,460
but he's a nice guy.

3515
03:59:49,460 --> 03:59:51,460
I'll say one thing, the Air Force

3516
03:59:51,460 --> 03:59:53,460
wouldn't have any powers-essentorship left.

3517
03:59:53,460 --> 03:59:55,460
Well, I'm glad you brought up the Air Force,

3518
03:59:55,460 --> 03:59:58,460
because that little hassle you had with Charlie,

3519
03:59:58,460 --> 04:00:00,460
I wouldn't...

3520
04:00:00,460 --> 04:00:02,460
I don't know whether too many people know about it,

3521
04:00:02,460 --> 04:00:04,460
I know quite a few people do.

3522
04:00:04,460 --> 04:00:07,460
On the back of Major Kehoe's book

3523
04:00:07,460 --> 04:00:09,460
called Flying Sources from Outer Space,

3524
04:00:09,460 --> 04:00:11,460
there's reproducer letter he received

3525
04:00:11,500 --> 04:00:13,500
from the Department of Defense,

3526
04:00:13,500 --> 04:00:15,500
the Office of Public Information,

3527
04:00:15,500 --> 04:00:17,500
dated January 26, 1953,

3528
04:00:17,500 --> 04:00:20,500
which has won an extremely amazing statement.

3529
04:00:20,500 --> 04:00:23,500
I think more people should know about

3530
04:00:23,500 --> 04:00:25,500
its address to the Henry Holt Company,

3531
04:00:25,500 --> 04:00:28,500
which is the publishers of Major Kehoe's book.

3532
04:00:28,500 --> 04:00:31,500
The concluding paragraph comes out of this statement.

3533
04:00:31,500 --> 04:00:34,500
The Air Force and its investigating agency project,

3534
04:00:34,500 --> 04:00:37,500
Blue Book, are aware of Major Kehoe's conclusion

3535
04:00:37,500 --> 04:00:39,500
that the Flying Sources are from another planet.

3536
04:00:39,540 --> 04:00:42,540
The Air Force has never denied that this possibility exists.

3537
04:00:42,540 --> 04:00:45,540
Some of the personnel believe that there may be

3538
04:00:45,540 --> 04:00:47,540
some strange natural phenomena

3539
04:00:47,540 --> 04:00:49,540
completely unknown to us,

3540
04:00:49,540 --> 04:00:51,540
but that if the apparently controlled manoeuvre

3541
04:00:51,540 --> 04:00:55,540
is reported by many competent observers are correct,

3542
04:00:55,540 --> 04:00:57,540
then the only remaining explanation

3543
04:00:57,540 --> 04:00:59,540
is the interplanetary answer,

3544
04:00:59,540 --> 04:01:01,540
very true of yours, Albert M. Chopp,

3545
04:01:01,540 --> 04:01:03,540
Air Force Prestes.

3546
04:01:03,540 --> 04:01:07,540
Also adding to this is what the Major said tonight,

3547
04:01:07,580 --> 04:01:09,580
and I have no reason to doubt it,

3548
04:01:09,580 --> 04:01:12,580
because he strikes me as an extremely creditable person.

3549
04:01:12,580 --> 04:01:15,580
What the Major said is correct about the fact

3550
04:01:15,580 --> 04:01:19,580
that some special Air Force reports were deliberately held off

3551
04:01:19,580 --> 04:01:23,580
to coincide with what they thought was the publication of his book.

3552
04:01:23,580 --> 04:01:26,580
Well, they gave a statement through Mike Wallace

3553
04:01:26,580 --> 04:01:30,580
that three of the four top secret reports

3554
04:01:30,580 --> 04:01:33,580
to which the Major referred did not exist,

3555
04:01:33,580 --> 04:01:36,580
and that the fourth didn't say what he said it.

3556
04:01:36,620 --> 04:01:38,620
Well, at the Air Force, I mean,

3557
04:01:38,620 --> 04:01:42,620
I'm sure that Ben Iskwifka and cited four secret documents

3558
04:01:42,620 --> 04:01:44,620
that the Air Force is supposed to have in their files,

3559
04:01:44,620 --> 04:01:47,620
I am quite convinced that no one in the Pentagon

3560
04:01:47,620 --> 04:01:49,620
is going to get very much upset

3561
04:01:49,620 --> 04:01:51,620
and no one is going to come out and publicly deny it.

3562
04:01:51,620 --> 04:01:53,620
Now, the fact that the Air Force

3563
04:01:53,620 --> 04:01:56,620
insists on certain prerogatives when it's going to appear

3564
04:01:56,620 --> 04:01:58,620
on the Armstrong family theater,

3565
04:01:58,620 --> 04:02:00,620
insists on certain prerogatives

3566
04:02:00,620 --> 04:02:04,620
and refuses to allow the Major to discuss these documents,

3567
04:02:04,660 --> 04:02:06,660
saying that they will completely deny them

3568
04:02:06,660 --> 04:02:08,660
and get into a hassle with him.

3569
04:02:08,660 --> 04:02:10,660
Wait, wait, and they will, and they,

3570
04:02:10,660 --> 04:02:14,660
and they give a statement for the Mike Wallace program.

3571
04:02:14,660 --> 04:02:17,660
I mean, all these things lead up to the fact,

3572
04:02:17,660 --> 04:02:20,660
I mean, and they have completely changed their statement

3573
04:02:20,660 --> 04:02:23,660
as quoted in this letter and signed by Albert M. Chopp.

3574
04:02:23,660 --> 04:02:26,660
They repudiated what Mr. Chopp apparently has said

3575
04:02:26,660 --> 04:02:29,660
in this letter, and this all seems to be that Major Kehoe

3576
04:02:29,660 --> 04:02:32,660
is somewhat of a frightening figure to the United States Air Force,

3577
04:02:32,700 --> 04:02:34,700
and he seemed like a very pleasant gentleman here tonight,

3578
04:02:34,700 --> 04:02:36,700
and I would like to know, frankly,

3579
04:02:36,700 --> 04:02:39,700
as a private citizen, just what are they afraid of?

3580
04:02:39,700 --> 04:02:41,700
Well, two things, Ben, before we try and find out

3581
04:02:41,700 --> 04:02:43,700
what the Air Force is afraid of.

3582
04:02:43,700 --> 04:02:45,700
They may be, for all I know.

3583
04:02:45,700 --> 04:02:48,700
But first, the Air Force,

3584
04:02:48,700 --> 04:02:50,700
in reference to the Mike Wallace show,

3585
04:02:50,700 --> 04:02:54,700
did not come out and make a denial all of themselves.

3586
04:02:54,700 --> 04:02:57,700
Wallace, the legman, having heard about these four documents,

3587
04:02:57,700 --> 04:02:59,700
which the Major mentions quite often,

3588
04:02:59,740 --> 04:03:01,740
went to the Air Force and said,

3589
04:03:01,740 --> 04:03:03,740
how about it?

3590
04:03:03,740 --> 04:03:05,740
What about these four documents?

3591
04:03:05,740 --> 04:03:07,740
The Air Force then said whatever they said.

3592
04:03:07,740 --> 04:03:10,740
They did not, out of the goodness of their heart

3593
04:03:10,740 --> 04:03:12,740
or the fear of the Almighty or something,

3594
04:03:12,740 --> 04:03:14,740
run up and say, no, there ain't no document.

3595
04:03:14,740 --> 04:03:16,740
And the second, if I may say this,

3596
04:03:16,740 --> 04:03:19,740
is that on the Armstrong Circle Theater,

3597
04:03:19,740 --> 04:03:22,740
the Air Force did not refuse permission

3598
04:03:22,740 --> 04:03:24,740
to Major Kehoe to discuss these things

3599
04:03:24,740 --> 04:03:26,740
as they could hardly have done.

3600
04:03:26,740 --> 04:03:28,740
What they said simply was that

3601
04:03:28,780 --> 04:03:30,780
if he talks about them,

3602
04:03:30,780 --> 04:03:33,780
we'll deny it, and the Armstrong Circle Theater

3603
04:03:33,780 --> 04:03:36,780
will do the permission for fear of a hassle.

3604
04:03:36,780 --> 04:03:38,780
So I don't think in either case the Air Force

3605
04:03:38,780 --> 04:03:40,780
was running around censoring people

3606
04:03:40,780 --> 04:03:42,780
or frantically denying any.

3607
04:03:42,780 --> 04:03:44,780
Well, Charlie, you're in TV,

3608
04:03:44,780 --> 04:03:46,780
and you know how these things work much better than I.

3609
04:03:46,780 --> 04:03:49,780
Now, if you had something to do

3610
04:03:49,780 --> 04:03:51,780
or a charge of producing a program

3611
04:03:51,780 --> 04:03:53,780
where you had two opposing sides,

3612
04:03:53,780 --> 04:03:55,780
and an Air Force officer told you

3613
04:03:55,780 --> 04:03:57,780
that if this person comes out and says

3614
04:03:57,820 --> 04:03:59,820
there are such documents,

3615
04:03:59,820 --> 04:04:01,820
we will flatly say that there aren't any.

3616
04:04:01,820 --> 04:04:03,820
I mean, you kind of react the same way

3617
04:04:03,820 --> 04:04:05,820
the Armstrong people.

3618
04:04:05,820 --> 04:04:07,820
You start thinking, perhaps this thing's a little bit too hot

3619
04:04:07,820 --> 04:04:09,820
to go out, maybe it's a little bit too hot to handle,

3620
04:04:09,820 --> 04:04:11,820
I don't want to get involved in it.

3621
04:04:11,820 --> 04:04:13,820
I think the Air Force, very effectively,

3622
04:04:13,820 --> 04:04:15,820
I mean, they have no right to tell the Armstrong people

3623
04:04:15,820 --> 04:04:17,820
how to run their program,

3624
04:04:17,820 --> 04:04:19,820
but they very effectively sunk

3625
04:04:19,820 --> 04:04:21,820
any discussion of those documents.

3626
04:04:21,820 --> 04:04:23,820
Well, let me defend myself.

3627
04:04:23,820 --> 04:04:25,820
Personally, if I had complete charge of the show,

3628
04:04:25,860 --> 04:04:27,860
I would be more than happy to let everybody come up

3629
04:04:27,860 --> 04:04:29,860
and kick each other's teeth in.

3630
04:04:29,860 --> 04:04:31,860
I'm sure you would, Charlie.

3631
04:04:31,860 --> 04:04:33,860
But you are quite right that in

3632
04:04:33,860 --> 04:04:35,860
if the thing went the way we assume it did,

3633
04:04:37,860 --> 04:04:39,860
and if there are some Machiavellian minds in the Pentagon,

3634
04:04:39,860 --> 04:04:41,860
and I'm sure there are some,

3635
04:04:41,860 --> 04:04:44,860
that they did exercise an indirect

3636
04:04:44,860 --> 04:04:46,860
censorship on Major Kehoe.

3637
04:04:46,860 --> 04:04:48,860
There doesn't seem to be any question of that.

3638
04:04:48,860 --> 04:04:51,860
They exercised a censorship on Canaryl, too,

3639
04:04:51,860 --> 04:04:54,860
because he had statements and pictures from the Air Force,

3640
04:04:54,900 --> 04:04:57,900
and they wouldn't let him produce any of these.

3641
04:04:57,900 --> 04:04:59,900
What I'm particularly concerned is,

3642
04:04:59,900 --> 04:05:01,900
and I'm much more concerned, Charles,

3643
04:05:01,900 --> 04:05:03,900
than apparently you are,

3644
04:05:03,900 --> 04:05:07,900
I think we have come to a crux,

3645
04:05:07,900 --> 04:05:11,900
a very critical position in American history.

3646
04:05:11,900 --> 04:05:14,900
If the American people want democracy,

3647
04:05:14,900 --> 04:05:16,900
this means we've got to have a government

3648
04:05:16,900 --> 04:05:19,900
of the people, by the people,

3649
04:05:19,900 --> 04:05:21,900
and for the people.

3650
04:05:21,900 --> 04:05:23,900
Not of the Air Force, by the Air Force,

3651
04:05:23,940 --> 04:05:25,940
and for the Air Force.

3652
04:05:25,940 --> 04:05:27,940
It has always been notable that

3653
04:05:27,940 --> 04:05:31,940
military men rule by dictation and command.

3654
04:05:31,940 --> 04:05:33,940
That's probably all right in the military.

3655
04:05:33,940 --> 04:05:35,940
Maybe it has to be that way.

3656
04:05:35,940 --> 04:05:38,940
But it certainly is diametrically opposed

3657
04:05:38,940 --> 04:05:40,940
to what we want in civilian life.

3658
04:05:40,940 --> 04:05:42,940
We want here in this country

3659
04:05:42,940 --> 04:05:44,940
the rule of the majority.

3660
04:05:44,940 --> 04:05:47,940
We want the rule of law,

3661
04:05:47,940 --> 04:05:49,940
the force of law.

3662
04:05:49,940 --> 04:05:51,940
We don't want the law of force

3663
04:05:51,980 --> 04:05:53,980
by the military.

3664
04:05:53,980 --> 04:05:55,980
We want freedom of speech and liberty

3665
04:05:55,980 --> 04:05:58,980
and information, freedom of the press,

3666
04:05:58,980 --> 04:06:00,980
rights to assemble,

3667
04:06:00,980 --> 04:06:02,980
as in our Fourth Amendment, I believe.

3668
04:06:02,980 --> 04:06:04,980
We don't want censorship.

3669
04:06:04,980 --> 04:06:06,980
We can't have censorship

3670
04:06:06,980 --> 04:06:08,980
if we're going to have a democracy.

3671
04:06:08,980 --> 04:06:10,980
Now, we finished fighting

3672
04:06:10,980 --> 04:06:12,980
the Second World War against Nazis.

3673
04:06:12,980 --> 04:06:15,980
The exact techniques that Nazis used

3674
04:06:15,980 --> 04:06:17,980
is what our Air Force is using

3675
04:06:17,980 --> 04:06:19,980
as far as flying saucers are concerned.